At the Spanish Empire's height, was it more or less powerful than China at the time?

Within China's borders they were the unquestioned world power but their poor ability (and desire) to project that power means that outside of China the Spanish were more than their equal.
 
The biggest thing is that China would much, much rather quietly trade with Spain than fight a bunch of beatdown drag-out wars with them that would win them a few jungle islands at best, as the Philippines were seen at the time iirc.
 
Why? Because they could field bigger armies? That's not a very good reason. What if the Spanish army was highly motivated and the Ming army was not? What if the Spanish were fighting on favorable ground? There are many factors that determine an army's success. I can't think of why the Ming would be just *inherently* superior.


It's not THAT hard to compare. Ever heard of the battle of Cape Celidonia? The Spanish defeated a much larger Ottoman fleet right off their own coastline, mostly due to superior ship technology (galleons vs. galleys). This was only 40 years after Lapanto, mind you. A Chinese fleet would be severely disadvantaged if it faced a Spanish fleet at its height.
Right, I may have been wrong to say that ming would have "easily" won events like the Tumu crisis show that ming was not invincible. However the Spanish struggled to fund an army of 300,000 whereas the Ming kept an at of somewhere over twice that size. Also as far as the Spanish army's morale their soldiers were often underpaid and I just don't see it being better than the ming. As far as what I said about navy being harder to compare I meant that ming junks are not as easily comparable to European ships as ming infantry to Spanish infantry. Junks are much bigger than European ships but also made of a different type of wood. Also I just don't know as much about naval history. Furthermore as far as industrial power goes ming wins because of better industrial methods and a much larger population. I remember hearing that ming iron outputs were not surpassed by Europe (all of Europe combined) until the mid 1800s around 200 years later. Ming definitely was worse at projecting it but had much more power than Spain at this time period.
 
I'm not sure if a Ming army would beat the Spanish so easily. The tercio was a big shock to other European armies AFAIK, and required some experience and innovation to counter. The Ming would surely have the same problem. In a longer war Spain might get worn down by numbers, and the Chinese would probably develop counters to the tercio (though Ming clearly has weaknesses, they did get conquered by the Qing in this period after all), but in one army v. army "Deadliest Warrior" fight I'd give it to Spain unless the Chinese army outnumbers them by 3:1 or more.
 
Yes, otherwise the Philippines wouldn't have become Spanish. If the Chinese had been stronger they would have intervened successfully and kicked the Spanish out of a group of islands that the Chinese had important trade colonies in.
That’s a no.It wasn’t because they weren’t powerful enough,but they simply just don’t give a fuck about the Philippines.For Ming China,any land out of China proper was worthless and that it would be a complete waste of taxpayer money to try and conquer them.They don’t give a fuck about Chinese merchants overseas either,because technically,these people are either pirates or smugglers,often both.The emperor would be extremely happy if the Spanish happened to kill all these Chinese for him.
 
At the Spanish Empire's height, was it more or less powerful than Ming China at the time?
How are we defining the Spanish Empire's height? Because if we're talking it's relative height in the "Golden Century" then militarily it would definitely be weaker than the Ming and Qing (though it would probably be able to replicate what Portugal did in Macau and make its presence on an island too prickly to evict). Economically it was able to crash the silver market in China, which surely counts for something.

If we're defining it by it's territorial height following the Revolutionary War (During which the Spanish military made a pretty good showing), then militarily they're probably strong enough to demolish the forces of the Qing so long as they don't advance into that dynasty's core (the Ten Great Campaigns make it pretty clear that the Qing military really lacked the strength to fight a determined opponent on its periphery).
 
I'm not sure if a Ming army would beat the Spanish so easily. The tercio was a big shock to other European armies AFAIK, and required some experience and innovation to counter. The Ming would surely have the same problem. In a longer war Spain might get worn down by numbers, and the Chinese would probably develop counters to the tercio (though Ming clearly has weaknesses, they did get conquered by the Qing in this period after all), but in one army v. army "Deadliest Warrior" fight I'd give it to Spain unless the Chinese army outnumbers them by 3:1 or more.
Ming weaknesses were mainly institutional.It lacked the ability to pay its’ soldiers adequately,just like how Spain cannot pay hers,and as a result,the discipline of both forces broke down in the 17th century.In terms of tactics,Ming forces would be familiar with the tercio.During the period,a formation known as the ‘Mandarin duck’ formation was developed,where soldiers would fight using pikes, firearms and other weapons like bows.It’s mainly a squad based formation,but when needed,it could be applied to the whole army as well.
 
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It might have been richer, but Spain was probably less powerful. Depends in part on where you're asserting Spain's height to be.
 
For Spain at its height I was going by the arbitrary date of 1600 since its around the middle of the time period that was Spain's golden age. What is interesting is that the period when China was the weakest relative to Spain was also when it would make the least sense for Spain to invade. Since it fell to the wing around the same time as the 30 years war was raging. I think that the long and short of it is that both countries lacked the force projection to beat the other in an out and out war. Neither Spain nor China would be able to bring their entire army (nor a large enough percent of it to invade the other) to the other countries borders for an invasion. If either one for some reason was stupid enough to attempt such a thing they would end up being invaded by a nearby power and be unable to stop their advance. Spain was a more intensive power in the sense they had a lot of power and wealth in China and rarely projected their power far from home. Spain was more extensive in that it controlled a lot of territory but it had much less strength in any one area. This distinction and the difference in types of technological advancement makes any meaningful comparison tenuous at best.
 
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