At the Spanish Empire's height, was it more or less powerful than China at the time?

althisfan

Banned
Also it’s when Spain was at its height was it stronger than China at that time.
Yes, otherwise the Philippines wouldn't have become Spanish. If the Chinese had been stronger they would have intervened successfully and kicked the Spanish out of a group of islands that the Chinese had important trade colonies in.
 
Yes.

And no.

Each was more powerful in certain areas they needed to be powerful in. Spain could not have conquered a China, nor vice-versa if that’s what you are wondering.
 
Yes.

And no.

Each was more powerful in certain areas they needed to be powerful in. Spain could not have conquered a China, nor vice-versa if that’s what you are wondering.

Not so much a conquest (full on occupation impossible) but if a war occurred for strategic ports and other locations.
 
Not so much a conquest (full on occupation impossible) but if a war occurred for strategic ports and other locations.
Depends where it’s being fought and why. China’s biggest strength, it’s dominant position in its area is simultaneously its massive weakness. It can’t concentrate risk concentrating abroad in case it was attacked at home.

Same for Spain though. France is far more dangerous for Spain than China.

And the Philippines is, ironically, mostly important for trade with China. I’d guess that there would be naval battles, which Spain likely wins, and then both realize they’re acting kinda stupid and go status quo ante.

Also the wealth of the nations, international prestige (Who was more respected overall).

China, easily. The whole point of early colonization was getting China’s stuff.
 

althisfan

Banned
Also the wealth of the nations, international prestige (Who was more respected overall).
Spain was wealthier when we talk about specie, and China knew it. China only accepted silver and gold (and animal pelts) because there was nothing manufactured that the Europeans made (except cuckoo clocks) that the Chinese found interesting (except opium). Spain had gold and silver in abundance, the Chinese didn't.
 
Each was prestigious to different countries. China was undoubtedly the most prestigious country in Asia, Spain was one of the most prestigious countries in Europe. I honestly don't think there was ever a point Spain could have invaded China and faced even moderate success. Even when China was at its weakest Spain did not have the force projection for such a monumental task.
 

samcster94

Banned
Each was prestigious to different countries. China was undoubtedly the most prestigious country in Asia, Spain was one of the most prestigious countries in Europe. I honestly don't think there was ever a point Spain could have invaded China and faced even moderate success. Even when China was at its weakest Spain did not have the force projection for such a monumental task.
Exactly. They didn't have 20th century technology like Imperial Japan infamously did.
 
Height meaning multiple things (and I should have clarified this earlier so thank you for pointing this out):


1) Economic power

2) Military capability

3)If they fought a war

4) Prestige


OK, at the height of its power Spanish "empire" (of Phillip II) was in a deep trouble economically and declared bankruptcy a number of times. However, it was the most "prestigious" country in Europe.

It had, formally, the strongest military force and a greatest navy in Europe but could not effectively maintain them:

(a) its armies had been routinely underpaid (or not paid) and size of these armies was under the numbers required by Phillip's foreign policy.
(b) it seemingly, could not even produce enough long-range guns to arm the 1st Armada properly and its troops started lagging behind in the terms of the firearms to pikemen ratio in the tercios.
 
To be fair, China also couldn't ever invade Spain in this time period.
right China was not really a naval power. However if say we teleported the largest possible army that Spain could have fielded and ming could have fielded around 1600 to the same location and had them fight ming would have easily won. As far as naval power goes. It is much harder to say. Ming was not a major naval power compared to dynastys like the song dynasty but it is hard to compare navies.
Also although Spain was really prestigious it was at least viewed as an equal by surrounding powers. Chinese dynasties at their heights were the unquestioned hegemons of their neighbours.
 
For the mid 16th century:
Navally probably Spain, considering China was dealing with the Wokou pirates during this time.
Militarily probably China, Tercios are good and at all but during this time China scored various victories against the Steppe people and Jurchens.
Economically probably China, by sheer weight. Per capita probably Spain.
 
right China was not really a naval power. However if say we teleported the largest possible army that Spain could have fielded and ming could have fielded around 1600 to the same location and had them fight ming would have easily won.
Why? Because they could field bigger armies? That's not a very good reason. What if the Spanish army was highly motivated and the Ming army was not? What if the Spanish were fighting on favorable ground? There are many factors that determine an army's success. I can't think of why the Ming would be just *inherently* superior.

As far as naval power goes. It is much harder to say. Ming was not a major naval power compared to dynastys like the song dynasty but it is hard to compare navies.
It's not THAT hard to compare. Ever heard of the battle of Cape Celidonia? The Spanish defeated a much larger Ottoman fleet right off their own coastline, mostly due to superior ship technology (galleons vs. galleys). This was only 40 years after Lapanto, mind you. A Chinese fleet would be severely disadvantaged if it faced a Spanish fleet at its height.
 
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