Assay: Visigothic WRE instead of Frankish

While planning my next TL, I have some actual ideas about a storyline concerning the creation of a restored WRE based on a surviving Visigothic Kingdom instead of the OTL Frankish-Carolingian WRE.

For a successfully surviving Visigothic Kingdom I think I need to set two premises:

1) No Muslim threat. I thought about a typical no-Islam scenario but I prefer to be more creative and I would like to introduce a PoD where the Sassanid Empire manages to crush the Byzantines around 610. A stronger and larger Sassanid Empire would be able to defeat the Arabs later, and this fact will surely prevent the expansion of Islam outside Arabia, thus becoming just a local religion. In the other way, the fall of the Byzantines will make the Pope to look for protection against the Lombards a century or so earlier than OTL. Considering that the Franks were divided at the early 7th century and unable to provide effective protection, the Pope might look for an alliance with the Visigoths instead.

2) The Visigothic Kingdom must be politically stable. An additional PoD to be introduced should be the transition from an elective monarchy to a dynastic one, where the number and influence of noblesmen would be significantly reduced and the bishops would lack of political power. The continued fights and murders between the last Visigothic Kings doomed the fate of the Kingdom IOTL.

So, if the Visigothic Kingdom manages to be a relatively stable and strong entity by the time when the Pope needs help against the Lombards (in this case, during the first half of the 7th century due to the anticipated fall of the Byzantine power), an alliance between the Visigoths and the Papacy could be triggered. Then, it's possible to introduce a Visigoth equivalent of Charlemagne that could defeat the Lombards, and the Pope could offer him the Imperial crown in the same way. In this case, without any controversy, as long as the ERE does not survive and there is not an alternate Emperor.

A Visigothic-based WRE would be for sure very different from the OTL Frankish one. It would be not as Germanic-focused as long as it will pivot mostly on the union of Spain and Italy. Italy will be more politically unified from the beginning once the Lombards are evicted and if there are not Germanic or Byzantine interferences. And probably the Visigothic Emperor will reside in Rome itself, with some sort of vice-kings of his own dynasty ruling in Spain. This could mean some political infight for power though.

If this Visigothic WRE manages to succeed, some kind of expansion is possible during the following centuries. A sort of 'colonization' of the North African coastline from Tanger to Carthage is likely I think. And a continued fight against the Franks for the control of the 'land bridge' between the Visigothic Septimania and Liguria is pretty predictable. It would be interesting to explore the effects of such Visigothic WRE over the Southern Gaul.

As you know, I'm quite ambitious with my TLs, so I would surely think about a further expansion to the East once the WRE would have consolidated (probably not before the 11th century). If the Sassanid Empire (of its successor) keeps on ruling the Eastern part of the Mediterranean, there are two possibilities: either the Empire tries to gradually impose the Zoroastrian religion to move Christianism slowly out (in a similar mood of the OTL Arab Caliphate) or maybe the Empire will finally embrace one of the Christian branches. Personally, I think the last option is more likely. However, it's quite sure that they will not opt for a Christian church linked to the Roman authority.

Considering that in this scenario there is not Eastern Schism and there are probably not iconoclastic movements (because there is not ERE), it's possible that some Eastern Christian communities would remain loyal to the Roman church, especially in the Balkans and Greece. So it's not unlikely that they would seek for the protection of the WRE against the Sassanids. But I need to think more about these later developments.

Well, any suggestion about these premises will be more than welcome :D
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 67076

Why not just have Theodoric the Great succeed in merging the two Gothic realms? I think there's a timeline on this somewhere.
 
Why not just have Theodoric the Great succeed in merging the two Gothic realms? I think there's a timeline on this somewhere.

I think this kind of union would have not lasted much time. In this scenario you would have a WRE formed by two different Gothic nations that were still Arian by the time he lived, something that caused much trouble with the Papacy and the mostly Catholic population of both realms.

In order to establish a successful alternate WRE this must be as stable as possible, given the political situation of the early Middle-Ages in Europe. And this sort of union would have not probably survived to Theodoric's death. Just like OTL Frankish WRE, an alternate WRE should have not religious divisions or nobility coming from diverse Gothic nations.

And all of this not considering the big threat that the Byzantines still were by the first half of the 6th century.
 
Your going to need a Pod that is early enough to keep Aquitaine under Gothic control. With Aquitaine under control, the goths can dominate most of Gaul, which would provide the necessary man power and tax base for a "Gothic empire"

For political stability, keep the Balti dynasty from becoming extinct, so the kingdom doesn't fall to elective anarchy. With an early enough Pod, it is simple to keep the Balti in control.

For Papal relations, the visigoths have to convert to Nicene Christianity. No way the pope will invite an Arian into Italy. Of course, this conversion will have a strong backlash as per OTL.
 
Your going to need a Pod that is early enough to keep Aquitaine under Gothic control. With Aquitaine under control, the goths can dominate most of Gaul, which would provide the necessary man power and tax base for a "Gothic empire"

For political stability, keep the Balti dynasty from becoming extinct, so the kingdom doesn't fall to elective anarchy. With an early enough Pod, it is simple to keep the Balti in control.

For Papal relations, the visigoths have to convert to Nicene Christianity. No way the pope will invite an Arian into Italy. Of course, this conversion will have a strong backlash as per OTL.

Thank you for the advices ;)

I actually thought about retaining Aquitaine just for manpower and tax interest as you say. The problem is that Visigoths lost it too early. But maybe I can introduce a PoD where Visigoths can recover it later, when Franks were fighting themselves (i.e. the Neustrian vs. Austrasian fights could be a good chance for 'stealing' Aquitaine away, which was in fact more Latinized than Northern Gaul and more keen to join Spain and Italy by some time). Good point.

Regarding the Balti dynasty, this was not a true dynasty but mostly a 'tribe' inside Visigoths. I think it's better to introduce a brand new dynasty more in the mood of upcoming true European dynasties.

The Visigoths converted OTL to Nicene Christianity in 587. Maybe it would be a good point to introduce then the PoD of introducing a dynasty: the Kingdom was at peak after defeating the Suebi and the Vascons.
 
Thank you for the advices ;)
Glad to help;

Now, you said you wanted north africa in this Gothic empire. I would suggest that Hilderc put up a better fight against Gelimar, leading to a big Nicene/Arain Vandal civil war. This "Gothic emperor" could offer to aid Hilderic in exchange for him becoming a vassal king.

If that Pod is too early, maybe have an exarch of Carthage ask the Gothic empire for aid against the encroaching Berber tribesmen. This would be good especially if the Byzantines are distracted with Persia.
 
Glad to help;

Now, you said you wanted north africa in this Gothic empire. I would suggest that Hilderc put up a better fight against Gelimar, leading to a big Nicene/Arain Vandal civil war. This "Gothic emperor" could offer to aid Hilderic in exchange for him becoming a vassal king.

If that Pod is too early, maybe have an exarch of Carthage ask the Gothic empire for aid against the encroaching Berber tribesmen. This would be good especially if the Byzantines are distracted with Persia.

As the idea for my second PoD (first will be changing Visigothic dynasty) relies in the Byzantine-Sassanid Wars (with the Sassanids crushing Byzantium), the Vandals were just gone by this period.

But I like your idea about the exarch of Carthage seeking 'submission' to the Visigothic WRE. Once Byzantium falls, the surviving western provinces of the ERE (which probably would be not occupied by the Sassanids) should look for their way to survive. Carthage's best option would be allying with the new WRE if they do not want to succumb to continued infight against the Berbers.

The most I explore the idea of this TL, the most I figure that an eventual fall of the ERE after the Sassanid-Byzantium wars could have boosted the upsurge of an alternate WRE :D
 
The biggest single problem is that the Goths were Arian, and the population Catholic.

Which meant the Gothic and Vandal states were opposed by those they ruled over, in particular the Church.

When the Franks, who converted to Catholicism, came along, they got full support from the Church, instead of being opposed by the Church.

Since the Church provided a lot of the organizational structure (clerk and cleric are the same word), that gave the Franks a huge advantage.

Could the Goths, Ostro or Visi, have won out? probably, but it would be really, really hard.
 
The biggest single problem is that the Goths were Arian, and the population Catholic.

Which meant the Gothic and Vandal states were opposed by those they ruled over, in particular the Church.

When the Franks, who converted to Catholicism, came along, they got full support from the Church, instead of being opposed by the Church.

Since the Church provided a lot of the organizational structure (clerk and cleric are the same word), that gave the Franks a huge advantage.

Could the Goths, Ostro or Visi, have won out? probably, but it would be really, really hard.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Visigoths were originally Arian, but they converted to Catholicism in 587 under King Reccared's rule. This brought some conflicts with anti-Catholic bishops, but in general the decission was widely accepted and the Visigothic Kingdom remained officially Catholic since then until the Umayyad invasion.

Regarding my planned PoDs, I have found that Reccared's son Liuva was in fact crowned Liuva II, but immediately deposed by Witteric afterwards. Considering that Reccared was a popular King (mainly due to implementing the official conversion to Catholicism), I think that if Liuva is not deposed, he could have the chance of consolidating a proper dynasty and revoke the elective system in the Kingdom. Moreover, if Liuva would have keep the campaign that his father started against the Byzantines in Southeast Spain this first PoD could be linked to the second PoD, as if the Heraclius duo would have been eventually involved here to assist the Spanish Byzantines, they could have been prevented to participate in the overthrown of Phocas, which was a key event for Byzantium to win the war years later against the Sassanids (it's possible that if Phocas would have lasted more time in the Byzantine throne, the Sassanids would have won the war in a few years).
 
OK, I have made a temptative map with some of the ideas posted above :D

In this map, the Sassanid Empire does not encompass all the territories of the defeated ERE, as it would have been probably too challenging for them (not easy to control Constantinople from Ctesiphon). So I have implemented the idea of a series of Greek-Persian states client to the Sassanids.

In the side of WRE, I have also separated the core of the WRE (the Visigothic Kingdom and the Italian territories) from eventual minor client states and Aquitaine. The former ERE exarchates that escaped Sassanid invasion (too much west for the Persians) are incoporated; the Pope keeps the Ducatus Romanus (Duchy of Rome) and the Lombard Duchy of Beneventum is kept but under the rule of one member of the Visigothic dynasty.

Due to the 'escape' of Aquitaine from the Frankish sphere and the influence of the WRE, Neustria and Austrasia remain separated and confronted.

Europe - TL650.PNG
 

Deleted member 67076

The Visigoths were actually pretty weak in the 600s thanks to all those civil wars. I doubt they have the navy or the power projection to retake Italy. Most of the provinces were more loyal to the Emperor in Constantinople than some barbarian king in Toulouse.

You want them to retake what would be the Western Empire, you need a POD before Justinian's Invasion of Italy.
 
The Visigoths were actually pretty weak in the 600s thanks to all those civil wars.

So you have not read my first posts :rolleyes:

First of all, the more serious civil wars started after Witteric took the power in 603. I have stated that my PoD want to prevent Witteric to take the power and keep Liuva in the throne and enforce a true dynastic power (in fact, his grandfather Leovigild and father Reccared were elected kings) after that that could ensure a more stable government.

I doubt they have the navy or the power projection to retake Italy. Most of the provinces were more loyal to the Emperor in Constantinople than some barbarian king in Toulouse.

I don't understand this.

First, there is no more Emperor in Constantinople as ITL the Sassanids crush the ERE during the 610s. That's why the western provinces of ERE that escape from the Sassanids switch their loyalty to the new WRE, basically because they have not any other suitable option.

Second, the Visigothic King resided in Toledo (central Spain), not Toulouse. And I said that after the Pope would offer him the tiltle of Emperor (as OTL did the Pope with barbarian Charlemagne), the most logical move is (as well as Ottonids did OTL, even if late) that the new Emperor will reside in Rome, leaving a vice-King in Toledo. So the provinces obey a Emperor in Rome, not a random king in a lost city.

And third, the Visigoths, if not weakened by infight, were able to crush the Lombards with the help of the remaining ex-Byzantine power in Italy. The Visigoths just invaved Italy in the 5th century and later in Spain managed to evict Suebi, Alans and Vandals and also defeated the Vascons many times and expell the Byzantines from the South. So they would have been able to crush the Lombards if they wanted and if they counted with logistic help from the ex-Byzantine areas in Italy (for transporting troops from Spain there), that could have been guaranteed if the Pope is who calls them (just as happened with OTL eviction of the Lombards when the Pope called the Franks).
 

Deleted member 67076

So you have not read my first posts :rolleyes:

First of all, the more serious civil wars started after Witteric took the power in 603. I have stated that my PoD want to prevent Witteric to take the power and keep Liuva in the throne and enforce a true dynastic power (in fact, his grandfather Leovigild and father Reccared were elected kings) after that that could ensure a more stable government.
They'd still be pretty damn weak. They were in decline once the Franks too most of Gaul from them.

What's to stop some other usurper or someone else to screwing over the stability of the realm? Keeping another guy from the same dynasty doesn't magically mean people will respect it enough to not make plays for power, especially when the Visigoths have a tradition of coups and assassinations dating from Alaric's time.

If not Witteric than someone else will do it.

I don't understand this.
They don't have the men, money, ships and arms to hold these provinces. The logistics don't favor that.

First, there is no more Emperor in Constantinople as ITL the Sassanids crush the ERE during the 610s.
Bullshit. The Emperor would flee to Africa, move the court and navy to Carthage and continue the fight there. Meanwhile, in Anatolia the Sassanids would be overextended as fuck and dealing with the large scale remnants of the empire which would drain their men and money, along with Avar and Slavic raids who'd want a peace of the Byzantines and thus contest the Sassanids.

Greco-Persian states doesn't make much sense either. That name implies the Persians have attempted to settle the area and the the Romans fractured (they'd probably rally around a leader at that point who would unite the remnants) and the Persians settled the land or some generals/nobles left the Persian state to join with the Romans/carve out their own fiefdom. That ain't happening.

That's why the western provinces of ERE that escape from the Sassanids switch their loyalty to the new WRE, basically because they have not any other suitable option.
What WRE? The Visigoths? Under who's authority do they declare themselves the Western Empire?

The provinces of the ERE are going to choose the African remnant of the Empire first and foremost as opposed to an enemy that has the audacity to claim the title of Emperor, or just stay for themselves.

Its like claiming the Empire of Trebizond will submit to the Ottomans just because Bulgaria took Constantinople.

Second, the Visigothic King resided in Toledo (central Spain), not Toulouse. And I said that after the Pope would offer him the tiltle of Emperor (as OTL did the Pope with barbarian Charlemagne), the most logical move is (as well as Ottonids did OTL, even if late) that the new Emperor will reside in Rome, leaving a vice-King in Toledo. So the provinces obey a Emperor in Rome, not a random king in a lost city.
The Pope? The Pope wouldn't choose them. They'd choose the Exarch's first, but probably not. Why would they do that when the African provinces are right there?

Even then, lets say the Pope wants someone closer. They'd pick Francia. Francia has proven to be more loyal to the church, has more prestige with all these conquests, a string of good leaders, a powerful army, and were clearly thought to be the new rising power. Not the Visigoths.

The Pope would pick the one with the bright future ahead of it. To say nothing of the baggage the Goths carry for being recent converts.

As well, residing in Rome makes no sense. Their power base was in Iberia. Moving away from that will make them weaker and prevents the King from keeping a closer eye on the nobles.

And third, the Visigoths, if not weakened by infight, were able to crush the Lombards with the help of the remaining ex-Byzantine power in Italy.
And the Franks just let them pass? Where did they got the navy to ship those troops? The Roman navy blew them the fuck out during the invasion of Spain.

I have a very difficult time believing the Goths can just waltz in, ally with the Romans in Italy (who still were resentful to the Goths for all the damage they caused in the centuries before, especially the sacks) and push back the Lombards.

The Visigoths just invaved Italy in the 5th century and later in Spain managed to evict Suebi, Alans and Vandals and also defeated the Vascons many times and expell the Byzantines from the South.
The 400s. 200 years before your POD. Things change. For the better and for the worse.

Second, the latter was because the Byzantine's weren't putting nearly their full strength into invading. Spain was kind of an afterthought, and like the invasion of Italy, it had few men and supplies. If the Romans put their full might behind it the Goths would have a harder time removing them.

So they would have been able to crush the Lombards if they wanted and if they counted with logistic help from the ex-Byzantine areas in Italy (for transporting troops from Spain there), that could have been guaranteed if the Pope is who calls them (just as happened with OTL eviction of the Lombards when the Pope called the Franks).
Doubtful son. Again, the Pope would go for the Franks while allying himself with the Exarch of Ravenna in order to co-ordinate attacks on the Lombard duchies. As well, the Goths were weaker than the Franks. They'll have less success than OTL if the Pope were to call them.
 
They'd still be pretty damn weak. They were in decline once the Franks too most of Gaul from them.

Ah, so for being 'in decline' since 507 (when they lost most of Gaul) they were still been able to run the Kingdom two more centuries in Spain, evict all the other Germanic people settled there, conquer the Suebi Kingdom, evict the Byzantines themselves, defeat the Vascons and prevent the Franks to take Septimania or fully incorporate Vasconia-Aquitaine in zillion attempts. Not bad for be so 'declining'.

What's to stop some other usurper or someone else to screwing over the stability of the realm? Keeping another guy from the same dynasty doesn't magically mean people will respect it enough to not make plays for power, especially when the Visigoths have a tradition of coups and assassinations dating from Alaric's time.

If not Witteric than someone else will do it.

If you read what stated for my first PoD I said that not only Liuva would keep the power and prevent Witteric to overthrown him, but also to reform the Kingdom to scrap the rotten elective system and introduce a true dynastic system where power of high noblesmen will be reduced. Not easy, but others (the Franks and successors) implented it, why not them?

They don't have the men, money, ships and arms to hold these provinces. The logistics don't favor that.

They don't 'hold' these provinces, their former Byzantine administration does it. The WRE is not an enlarged Visigothic Kingdom, but the union of the Visigothic Kingdom with the western remnant of the ERE once Constantinople falls, based on an agreement between the Pope and the Visigothic King for mutual assistance, just like happened IOTL between the Pope and Charlemagne.

Bullshit. The Emperor would flee to Africa, move the court and navy to Carthage and continue the fight there. Meanwhile, in Anatolia the Sassanids would be overextended as fuck and dealing with the large scale remnants of the empire which would drain their men and money, along with Avar and Slavic raids who'd want a peace of the Byzantines and thus contest the Sassanids.

Well, the Emperor could flee if the Sassanids don't block the Aegean routes, isn't it? And fighting the Sassanids from Carthage is a very bad idea, anyway. The Sassanids had no problem in controling Eastern Anatolia IOTL when they conquered it. And Avars and Slavs are in the Balkans, Sassanids would not go there, just promote the creation of client states once Constantinople falls and it's prevented to recover.

Greco-Persian states doesn't make much sense either. That name implies the Persians have attempted to settle the area and the the Romans fractured (they'd probably rally around a leader at that point who would unite the remnants) and the Persians settled the land or some generals/nobles left the Persian state to join with the Romans/carve out their own fiefdom. That ain't happening.

Greco-Persian means that a Persian elite controls a Greek populated land. You rely so much in the patriotism of 'Roman' or 'Greeks' there, but many of them defected in all wars following the enormous bankrupt after Justinian's fancy imperialist campaigns that obliged the following emperors to tax the people in such fierce way that many 'Roman' or 'Greeks' in the East preferred surrender to the Arab conquest that keep on being overtaxed. Epics only real for Braveheartish films.

What WRE? The Visigoths? Under who's authority do they declare themselves the Western Empire?

So you didn't read my posts. I said that the Pope would offer the crown to the Visigothic King once the ERE does not exist (Emperor vacant) and the Visigothic King agrees on helping the Pope in evicting the Lombards from Italy.

The provinces of the ERE are going to choose the African remnant of the Empire first and foremost as opposed to an enemy that has the audacity to claim the title of Emperor, or just stay for themselves.

The 'African remnant' was then struggling for not being raided by the Berber tribes, so it's very difficult that they would choose to stay for themselves. In a few years they would be divided between different Berber states. And the 'audacity' is something approved and blessed by the Pope himself. Those provinces were Catholic, remember.

The Pope? The Pope wouldn't choose them. They'd choose the Exarch's first, but probably not. Why would they do that when the African provinces are right there?

The Exarch could not have helped the Pope against the Lombards without the military assistance of the defeated ERE.

Even then, lets say the Pope wants someone closer. They'd pick Francia. Francia has proven to be more loyal to the church, has more prestige with all these conquests, a string of good leaders, a powerful army, and were clearly thought to be the new rising power. Not the Visigoths.

The problem is that Francia, if you bother to check the era when these PoDs are set, was still divided and under internal war between Neustria and Austrasia. Francia will be useful a century later, but not at the early 600s. You are thinking about the Francia of Charlemagne (late 700s) and I am setting this at the first half of the 600s, when Francia was divided and stormed by war.

The Pope would pick the one with the bright future ahead of it. To say nothing of the baggage the Goths carry for being recent converts.

The Pope sent some relics to Reccared in 599 in recognition to the Visigothic conversion, so he would not be that bothered in seeking their help. I agree that the Pope would have not been enthusiastic with the idea though, but if they are his last option, they will prefer to risk calling them rather than letting Rome to the Lombard mercy.

As well, residing in Rome makes no sense. Their power base was in Iberia. Moving away from that will make them weaker and prevents the King from keeping a closer eye on the nobles.

Moving away from such toxic court as the Toledo one was would have been the best decission, if he was able to pick a trustable vice-king to stay there. It is proven that worked well OTL with the Ottonids, and the decission of Charlemagne to stay at Aachen weakened his prestige as newly restored Emperor, as many Roman subdits still perceived him as a 'barbarian ruling Rome from a lost cold city'.

And the Franks just let them pass? Where did they got the navy to ship those troops? The Roman navy blew them the fuck out during the invasion of Spain.

The Visigothic ships only need to transport troops from Spain to Rome or other ex-Byzantine safe areas. No need of navy of war against the Lombards. Franks were not present at mid-Mediterranean, so they are irrelevant here (anyway, transporting troops by land through the Alps would not have been a good idea, as the Lombards controlled the accesses from the Alps into the Po valley; the Franks had the advantage OTL that the Lombard entities of the Po valley were confronted between them when they launched the invasion).

I have a very difficult time believing the Goths can just waltz in, ally with the Romans in Italy (who still were resentful to the Goths for all the damage they caused in the centuries before, especially the sacks) and push back the Lombards.

You are thinking on ethnicities rather than in religion. For a 600s Pope, Catholics (no matter nationality) were their potential allies, and Visigoths were Catholics and Lombards not, and they were indeed threatening Rome. That's why OTL also worked with the Franks (do you think the Pope loved the Franks?).

The 400s. 200 years before your POD. Things change. For the better and for the worse.

The Visigothic invasion of Italy was at the 400s yes, but all the rest of military achievements are dated at the late 500s, so the Visigothic military was in better shape that many would assume here. I think way better than the divided Franks of the same time.

Second, the latter was because the Byzantine's weren't putting nearly their full strength into invading. Spain was kind of an afterthought, and like the invasion of Italy, it had few men and supplies. If the Romans put their full might behind it the Goths would have a harder time removing them.

That's not completely true. New Carthage (today Cartagena) was considered strategically key for the Byzantines and they spent a lot of resources securing that area. It was hard for the Visigoths to crush the Byzantine after repeated attempts. New Carthage had his own master that depended directly on the Emperor himself. Probably the Byzantines spent more sources in defending that area that most of Italy; something not that strange as the Byzantines were a naval power that gave more importance in securing strategic ports and straits than, let's say, keeping the valley of the Po river.

Doubtful son. Again, the Pope would go for the Franks while allying himself with the Exarch of Ravenna in order to co-ordinate attacks on the Lombard duchies. As well, the Goths were weaker than the Franks. They'll have less success than OTL if the Pope were to call them.

Say again: the Franks were split between Neustria and Austrasia at the early 600s and even lost control over Aquitaine. They lack of a solid ruler then. And you are way overrating the ability of the Exarch of Carthage, which main purpose was clearing Carthage from Berber raids. The Visigoths were the only capable to beat the Lombards in this scenario (= Franks divided, no ERE, no Carthage able to do more than keeping them away from Berbers).

As conclusion: just think, if you were the Pope at the early 600s and you realize that the entity (ERE) that have been protecting you from the real menace of the Lombards have just fallen and there are no more Byzantine garrisons to protect you, which external power would you call?

a) the Visigothic Kingdom which is now Catholic and stay relatively strong
b) any of the Frankish states that are busy then killing each other
c) a non-Catholic barbarian state
d) the western remains of the ERE that are struggling for being not raided by Berbers or other barbarians
 
Last edited:
Still working on this pre-TL, I'm considering if an earlier conquest of the Macaronesian archipelagoes could be realistic in this scenario and which consequences could bring.

As long as expansions towards the Frankish area or the Balkans seem complicated, some gradual expansion through the northwestern african coastline might be possible, and at some point, send expeditions to Madeira and the Canary islands.

Visigothic Canary islands/Madeira or even Açores would be great for future expeditions to America or Sub-Saharian Africa (centuries later).
 
Top