Ask Me About Ancient Egypt

[B_Munro]

Keep reading the TL in my signature

Of course, it's not really Ancient Egypt that will be developing those technologies (faaaaar down the line)... More like a civilization that's Ancient Egypt's direct cultural and ethno-linguistic descendant, like modern China to the Han dynasty.

.

Hm. Rather more cultural continuity than OTL, then (not that there's that much between Han and Qing China, let alone post-Communist Neo-Gilded Age China.)

Bruce

 

[Jonashs]

My question is about Akhenaten`s Religion was it monotheistical ?. I wonder because I have read so many different opinions. One says it it`s and another says it`s not.
thank you for your time
Jonas

 

[Polish Eagle]

Would you give any credence to the theory that the religion of the Hebrews was in any way an offshoot of Atenism?

When did the Egyptians first develop any sort of metal-working?

 

[carlton_bach]

Answering this, finally.



I've been looking around, and it seems as though the answer to your question is: No, there aren't any substantial pre-Ptolemaic sources on Egyptian cuisine, at least not readily available. They may be in some sort of scholarly journal or book, by I don't have access to those resources at the moment.

This is probably due to the restriction of literacy in Egyptian society prior to the Late and Ptolemaic periods, when the Demotic and Greek scripts came into wide use. These were evidently much easier to learn than the Medu-Netjeru - the sacred hieroglyphic script that to many is such an iconic symbol of Egyptian civilization. Literacy was the domain of the priesthood and the bureaucracy, and none of them seem to have been too concerned with recipes, cuisine, or food in general beyond thing like "The Estate of Anhai produces 500 bushels of barley" etc.

It's kind of a pity, really... I'd love to be able to go to an "authentic" Ancient Egyptian restaurant

Thanks. So if i go with the relevant chaprter in Curtis "Ancient Food technology", I'm not missing anything major, I assume? My friends asked me to try a reconstruction of an Ancient Egyptian feast this year.

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

My question is about Akhenaten`s Religion was it monotheistical ?. I wonder because I have read so many different opinions. One says it it`s and another says it`s not.
thank you for your time
Jonas

Sort of... At the beginning it was henotheistic, which means that it accounted for the existence of other gods, but specifically chose to elevate the sun god above them all and worship only it. Later on, however, the Great Hymn to the Aten is written and it contains the line "Sole God, apart from which their is no other" which definitely implies at least proto-monotheism. The thing about Atenism is that it had an odd sort of theology eerily predictive of Christianity, in which the Sun was seen as two beings (Ra, the divine god of the sun - and the Aten, the divine, physically manifested orb of the sun) who were also one and the same, much like the Christian concept of the trinity. It's also worth mentioning that Akhenaten worshipped the sun as his literal father, since his actual father (Amenhotep III) underwent a ritual during his jubilee celebration in the 30th year of his reign that symbolically made him the same being as Ra.

Would you give any credence to the theory that the religion of the Hebrews was in any way an offshoot of Atenism?

When did the Egyptians first develop any sort of metal-working?

Offshoot, no. Influenced by, it's certainly plausible. Egypt ruled the Levant around the time the Hebrews were emerging as a distinct people, and the psalms do sometimes seem to echo the Great Hymn to the Aten previously mentioned (there's even a line in the hymn about how the Aten "gives unto [people] their daily bread"). I certainly wouldn't go around saying that the theory Judaism is an Atenist offshoot is historical fact, however.

It's hard to say exactly when, but they were definitely working with copper in pre-dynastic times (prior to 3000 BCE), and may have been the first civilization to work with gold.

Thanks. So if i go with the relevant chaprter in Curtis "Ancient Food technology", I'm not missing anything major, I assume? My friends asked me to try a reconstruction of an Ancient Egyptian feast this year.

Not as far as I can tell. For an "Ancient Egyptian" feast, I just recommend stuffing pita bread with the assorted vegetables and grilled meats previously mentioned, maybe with some feta and/or paneer and a nice spread of fruit.

And wine. Lot's of wine.

 

[chr92]

Thank you for this thread.

I read in a mystery novel about the 'pharonic clitoridectomy'. Was this in fact pharonic, and how far was it used?
Were very young marriages common?


Could you give a brief sketch of the dog breeds the Ancient Egyptians would have been most familiar with? Did they have the same contempt for the common dog as they do today?
Did their cats ever have unusual colours?


Would children born with red hair really be considered misfortune? How would their parents treat them?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Whoa, I'm answering this late, ain't I?

Thank you for this thread.

I read in a mystery novel about the 'pharonic clitoridectomy'. Was this in fact pharonic, and how far was it used?
Were very young marriages common?

I've seen the claim in several sources re. FGM (female genital mutilation) that the practice began in pharaonic times. However, I have never encountered any mention of it in Egyptological sources, not even those pertaining to the lives of ancient Egyptian women (in which I'd hope such a topic would be fairly prominent)... Greek historians mention something to the effect being practiced, so it could be indication that it was being practiced at least as early as their visits - though that was when Egypt was under Persian rule.

I'd note that the idea of female genital cutting would seem to be highly contradictory to pharaonic Egyptian attitudes towards sex, which didn't place a high value on the virginity of either participant and acknowledged that women actually have sexual agency and can derive pleasure from sexual acts (in stark contrast to many other ancient - and modern - cultures). So if the practice did originate in ancient Egypt, I can't really fathom in which context it would have been carried out...

Ancient Egyptians married young by our standards (in their early to mid teens), as adulthood for boys and girls was seen as beginning at puberty.

Could you give a brief sketch of the dog breeds the Ancient Egyptians would have been most familiar with? Did they have the same contempt for the common dog as they do today?
Did their cats ever have unusual colours?

The most prominent dog breed in ancient Egypt was the saluki or "gazelle hound", and its sub-type, the greyhound. Both were used as sporting/hunting animals as well as household companions - especially by the upper classes (the saluki has been called "the royal dog of Egypt"). Other hound-type dogs were also widespread, notably the basenji and the Ibizan hound. There's also a breed of dog called the pharaoh hound, which is believed to have originated in ancient Egypt (it's probably a saluki/greyhound sub-type). The Egyptians themselves distinguished between two classes of domesticated dogs: the tjesem or "hunting dog", and the iuiu or "house dog".
Ancient Egypt was home to the oldest known named dog - a royal greyhound named 'Abutiu who lived during the 6th Dynasty (Old Kingdom).

The standard cat breed in ancient Egypt was the Egyptian Mau (mau or miu was the Egyptian word for "cat"), which comes in a variety of colours, though always with more or less the same marking.
Some known ancient Egyptian cat names are "Nedjem" (lit. "Sweet Thing"), and "(Ta-)Miut" (basically "(Ms.) Kitty").

Would children born with red hair really be considered misfortune? How would their parents treat them?

Red hair was quite rare in ancient Egypt (the overwhelming majority of people had black, or at least very dark brown hair), and was generally associated with people of Libyan or Semitic ancestry. Set/Seth, the god of the desert and foreign lands (as well as chaos and disorder), was also described/sometimes portrayed as having red hair. However, it's also known that the ancient Egyptians sometimes dyed/tinted their hair red with henna (Ramesses II's mummy was given this treatment), so while redheads may have had to live with some unpleasant assumptions as a result of their hair colour (about which I can't go into much detail, since their aren't any records as far as I know), by and large it doesn't appear to have been considered all that important...

 

[chr92]

Thank you very much for these great answers. The cat names and link were a lovely plus!

Considering what you have been doing (apart from rl, too!) I've no complaints whatsoever. Another, here, hoping your 'Realm' lasts for a good long time.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Who 'created' Coptic, so to speak in a way? The greeks of Egypt who assimilated slowly, but kept greekisms around, the natives taking greek influence? is that a much divergent evolution, like English to Anglo-saxon so to speak, or smoother?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Who 'created' Coptic, so to speak in a way? The greeks of Egypt who assimilated slowly, but kept greekisms around, the natives taking greek influence? is that a much divergent evolution, like English to Anglo-saxon so to speak, or smoother?

Anglo-Saxon to English is actually a fairly informative comparison for the Egyptian to Coptic transition. Coptic is essentially Late Egyptian (i.e. the language written with the Demotic script), with Greek playing a similar role that Norman French did in the the development of English. The Greek elite continued to speak Greek right up until the Arab conquest (and even shortly thereafter), while the native Egyptians adopted a plethora of Greek words (especially those pertaining to religion and government) into their vocabulary, thusly creating Coptic.

At least one dialect of Coptic - Bohairic - also had its pronunciation deliberately altered to be closer to the pronunciation of Greek.

As someone who's been studying Coptic for the past couple of months (with a background in Middle Egyptian), I can say it's quite weird seeing sentences that are pure Egyptian next to other sentences that are 90% Greek words with only Egyptian articles, affixes, and particles...

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Anglo-Saxon to English is actually a fairly informative comparison for the Egyptian to Coptic transition. Coptic is essentially Late Egyptian (i.e. the language written with the Demotic script), with Greek playing a similar role that Norman French did in the the development of English. The Greek elite continued to speak Greek right up until the Arab conquest (and even shortly thereafter), while the native Egyptians adopted a plethora of Greek words (especially those pertaining to religion and government) into their vocabulary, thusly creating Coptic.

At least one dialect of Coptic - Bohairic - also had its pronunciation deliberately altered to be closer to the pronunciation of Greek.

As someone who's been studying Coptic for the past couple of months (with a background in Middle Egyptian), I can say it's quite weird seeing sentences that are pure Egyptian next to other sentences that are 90% Greek words with only Egyptian articles, affixes, and particles...

Did arabic left a mark after the conquest and the centuries passing?

Was there other languages spoken around ancient egypt, by the way? I suppose a berber language in the desert area west, and what the nubians spoke...

 

[Krall]

I'm doing a college project about gods relating to food, so I was wondering whether you could give me an overview of Ancient Egyptian gods relating to food (and/or drink, if there were any)? It's an art project, so I suppose their appearance and depiction are the most important things, but if you know anything about how important they were considered (in relation to each other and to non-food related gods), what foreign gods they were similar to/equated with, major myths about them, and so forth, I would be much obliged.

I was also wondering if you knew of any good sources of information about Egyptian gods, or ancient religion in general? Any help you can give would be awesome.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

I'm doing a college project about gods relating to food, so I was wondering whether you could give me an overview of Ancient Egyptian gods relating to food (and/or drink, if there were any)? It's an art project, so I suppose their appearance and depiction are the most important things, but if you know anything about how important they were considered (in relation to each other and to non-food related gods), what foreign gods they were similar to/equated with, major myths about them, and so forth, I would be much obliged.

Don't forget their beer, it was an important part of their culture.

 

[Krall]

Don't forget their beer, it was an important part of their culture.

Well I did say "and/or drink".

 

[Andrela]

Is it true that when they mummified the pharaoh, they removed his brain through his nose?

 

[Slowpoke]

Don't forget their beer, it was an important part of their culture.

Is it true that Egyptian beer contained large amounts of tetracycline due to contaminated grain?

 

[Oracle of Sobek 𓆋]

Did arabic left a mark after the conquest and the centuries passing?

Yes. One Coptic word of Arabic origin that I can think of off the top of my head is sēf, meaning "sword" (from Arabic: sīf). There are certainly more... Today, many Coptic churches in Egypt are beginning to incorporate Arabic vocabulary into the Coptic-language hymns and services.

The influence goes both ways, however. Egyptian Arabic contains substantial Coptic lexical, grammatical, and phonological substratum - many Egyptian Arabic words and names are borrowed from Coptic (especially in Upper Egyptian sub-dialects), and Egyptian Arabic pronunciation and grammar have also been influence by Coptic.

Also, I'd say that driving a native language to functional extinction counts as "leaving a mark".

Was there other languages spoken around ancient egypt, by the way? I suppose a berber language in the desert area west, and what the nubians spoke...

Yes there were, but they were different depending on what era of Egyptian history you're talking about.

From the Predynastic Period to the Old Kingdom, it seems likely that there were communities speaking Semitic languages in the Nile Delta (or at the very least said communities were influenced by Semitic material culture). Towards the end of the Middle Kingdom, these Semitic speakers began to rise to political prominence, and through a mix of migration and invasion they eventually seized control of the north of the country and became the Hyksos (though their culture - and probably language - received substantial Egyptian influence in the process). Also during the Middle Kingdom and into the period of Hyksos rule over the north (the 2nd Intermediate Period) there appear to have been Minoan communities in the Nile Delta.

In the New Kingdom, the Hyksos are expelled and Semitic influence tapers off (though a number of Semitic loan-words remain in the Late Egyptian language). In the Late New Kingdom, Libyan Berber mercenaries become an important part of the army, and many settle in the Nile Valley with their families (until then, the Libyan Berber languages were mostly confined to the western oases). After the collapse of the New Kingdom, in the 3rd Intermediate Period, northern Egypt will be ruled by several competing dynasties of Libyan Berber descent (though quite Egyptianized in culture). The Nubian-speaking Kushites conquer Egypt c. 760 BCE, but their language never really takes root in Egypt proper (the Kushites themselves used Egyptian as a prestige language).

From the Late Period (c. 664 BCE) onward, Egypt becomes far more linguistically diverse. Hebrew and Aramaic speaking communities appear in several major Egyptian cities, such as Ineb-hedj [Memphis], Iunu [Heliopolis], Waset [Thebes], and Swenut [Aswan], and Sau [Saïs - the Late Period capital]. Mercenaries speaking Anatolian languages such as Lycian, Carian, and Lydian were employed by Egypt and settled in the Delta. There are also Greek trading posts (some books describe Greek settlements in Egypt as "colonies", though they were firmly under the thumb - and often founded by the mandate - of the Late Period pharaohs) in northern Egypt, and later Armenian communities also sprang up in major cities, including Alexandria in the Hellenistic and Greco-Roman periods. Latin doesn't appear to have ever been widely spoken/used in Egypt proper.

BTW, the Nubians and Kushites likely spoke a Nilotic language, as both Old (i.e. Medieval) and Modern Nubian belong to that language family.

I'm doing a college project about gods relating to food, so I was wondering whether you could give me an overview of Ancient Egyptian gods relating to food (and/or drink, if there were any)? It's an art project, so I suppose their appearance and depiction are the most important things, but if you know anything about how important they were considered (in relation to each other and to non-food related gods), what foreign gods they were similar to/equated with, major myths about them, and so forth, I would be much obliged.

Well, first of all there's Hapy. Hapy is the deification of the annual Nile flood, and as a result he* is associated with agriculture and food production.

I say "he*" because Hapy was actually an androgynous/hermaphroditic deity, portrayed with both male and female traits (but Egyptian is a gendered language, and when referring to Hapy uses the masculine pronoun).

That's an image of Hapy (his* name in hieroglyphs is in the second column, between the first squiggly line and the three below), and you can read the Hymn to Hapy here.

Another deity associated with agriculture was Renenutet, the goddess of nourishment and the harvest (the harvest season being when her festival was celebrated. She is generally depicted as a woman with the head of a cobra (or just as a cobra). She is sometimes shown suckling Nepri, the god of grain who is often depicted as child covered in dots (representing seeds). The female counterpart of Nepri - Nepret - (who is also associated with Renenutet), is generally represented in the same manner as Renenutet (i.e. a cobra or a cobra-headed woman). Another deity (also portrayed as a cobra) closely associated witht Renenutet was Djef, who was basically the generic "god of food".

From right to left in the image above: Nepret, Renenutet, and Hu (a god of creation), with Djef just out of the frame (though he doubtless looks like the other snake-gods).

Other Egyptian gods associated generically with food/agriculture/fertility were Osiris (associated with renewal - i.e. the agricultural cycle - portrayed as a mummy with green skin and wearing the atef crown), Min (the god of fertility - portrayed as a mummy with black skin, an erect penis, and wearing a plumed crown), and Sobek (the guardian of the Nile and of the annual floods regenerative powers - he was sometimes described as Renenutet's husband, and was depicted as a man with the head of a crocodile).

Deities associated with food and drink were Bes (a household god - portrayed as a deformed dwarf - associated with feasts and celebrations), Hathor (in this context, the goddess of joy, merriment, and drunkenness - she was portrayed as a woman, a cow, or a woman with a cow's head), Bastet (the cat goddess, also associated with joy and celebration - her festival apparently degenerated into the ancient Egyptian equivalent of a kegger with alarming frequency), and Fetket (the butler of the sun god Ra).

The associations of some of the aforementioned gods & goddesses with their Greek equivalents (since the Greeks actually assigned equivalents of their gods to many Egyptian gods) would be as follows:

Renenutet - Demeter & Tyche
Osiris - Dionysus
Min - Pan
Hathor - Aphrodite
Bastet - Artemis

I was also wondering if you knew of any good sources of information about Egyptian gods, or ancient religion in general? Any help you can give would be awesome.

I'd recommend the Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses (by George Hart). There's another book with the fairly bland title of "Ancient Egyptian Religion" that's actually quite excellent (and succinct), but the name of the author escapes me right now... I'll PM you when I find it.

Is it true that when they mummified the pharaoh, they removed his brain through his nose?

Not just a pharaoh - anyone who was getting a primo mummification experience. They'd basically shove a wire into the nose and through the sinus into the brain cavity, stir all the grey matter into a slurry, and then let it drain out through the nose. They'd then plug the nostrils with linen or wax.

Is it true that Egyptian beer contained large amounts of tetracycline due to contaminated grain?

Examination of Nubian bodies dating between 350 BCE to 550 CE has shown high tetracycline markers in the bones, probably as a result of brewing methods or grain quality, as you suggest.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Was it true that there was some sort of birth control plant used by the Egyptians?

 

[Zuvarq]

How big would Egypt's military have been in 1300 BC? What was its composition?

During the reign of Akhenaten, did anyone besides the court and bureaucrats convert to Atenism?

When would tourism to the Pyramids have started?

 

[Flocculencio]

Was it true that there was some sort of birth control plant used by the Egyptians?

Silphium- it was a type of giant fennel. Not just used by the Egyptians but all over the Mediterranean world IIRC. It was so popular it went extinct through overcollecting.