Ask Me About Ancient Egypt
- Thread starter Oracle of Sobek 𓆋
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False. The idea that Cleopatra was beautiful seems to be a far more recent development. Think Shakespeare's time.
Alright, thanks for the information!
Seems the "beauty" they spoke about was a reference to her aurora, the way she carried and presented herself as a person.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
How plausible do you think it was for the rebellion of Hugronaphor against the Ptolemies to have been successful?
Since I have been asking this in the other threads:
What was the traditional ancient Egyptian diet? How did this change, if it did, after the multiple conquests you mentioned? Was there a significant difference between royal/noble diet vs. the common diet?
Also what were some common sexual practices in ancient Egypt? Were they far different then what we would consider "normal" in the modern day?
What was the traditional ancient Egyptian diet? How did this change, if it did, after the multiple conquests you mentioned? Was there a significant difference between royal/noble diet vs. the common diet?
Also what were some common sexual practices in ancient Egypt? Were they far different then what we would consider "normal" in the modern day?
I always imagined them as a generic brown. Like how they are in the movie The Prince of Egypt. Love that movie, they really do seem to have put in a lot of detail. Even Seti's design in the movie looks like he was based on the actual mummy of Seti.
How accurate or reliable would you say this site is? Discovered it a while ago, practically by accident, but I always thought it was a great treasure trove of information. And how do you think the Mummy movies did with the ancient Egyptian language?
I don't know if you've played Rome: Total War, but if you haven't, it depicts the Ancient Egyptian faction as being extremely Ancient, and closely resembling The Mummy (think chariots, lots of bling everywhere, Pharohs in their crowns of the two kingdoms leading their troops, and so on), whereas the game was actually set in Ptolmaic Egypt. If it was done accurately, what sort of army would the Egyptians have had?
To go with the dietary question: do we have any pre-Ptolemaic sources on the Egyptian diet that go beyond simple lists? I am unconvinced by Phyllis Pray Bober's attempt at reconstructing Egyptian cuisine, and the British Museum Press book on the subject sucks shockingly badly, but I wouldn't know where to start looking.
It's hard to say, because I personally am not particularly clear on the details of Horwennefer's (I'm a stickler for Egyptian names
) rebellion as it occurred on the ground. It IS clear that he was secure enough to pass his region of control (which may have been up to 80% of the country) on to a successor, Ankhmakis, so I'm inclined to think that if the Ptolemy's had made a few more mistakes, Ankhmakis could have very well finished what Horwennefer started.The influence appears to have mostly run from Egypt to Nubia/Kush. By the time the Kushites conquered Egypt, they were wearing Egyptian fashions, building in Egyptian styles, worshipping Egyptian gods, and considered themselves the guardians of Egyptian kingship against the barbarian Libyans who were ruling in the north. They did contribute a great deal to the security and stability of Egypt during their rule, they maintained and rejuvenated royal and religious practices that had fallen to the wayside, and like the great kings of old they made impressive additions to the Ipet-isut (Temple of Karnak), the cult centre of Amen-Ra. All in all, they were a pretty excellent dynasty that was actually welcomed by the Egyptians.
Diet was largely dependent on social status. That said, Egypt was a country of abundance compared to much of the ancient world, and even the low classes rarely went hungry or wanted for anything in their diet. No matter one's status, everyone ate bread - the most common being a flatbread made from emmer wheat or barley somewhat similar to modern pita or Indian naan (however, the flour was made by grinding grains between two stones, which meant that flecks of sand and grit could find their way in, wreaking havoc with people's teeth). Barley was also made into beer, the universal drink of ancient Egypt - but it wasn't like today's beers; it had a low alcohol content (children would drink it), was often sweetened with fruit, and had a thick, soupy texture that often required it to be strained before serving. Milk harvested from cattle and goats turned too quickly if nothing was done to it, so it was quickly turned into a cheeses similar to Indian paneer, Ethiopian ayb (think cottage cheese) and Greek feta. It could also be turned into butter that was then clarified (like Indian ghee), again as a measure against spoilage, and used as a cooking oil. Other cooking oils were made from lettuce, radish, safflower, and sesame seeds, and later from olives. The poor often supplemented their diet with fish and small game such as waterfowl, or by raising pigeons. Vegetables included green onions, garlic (they were REALLY fond of garlic), lettuce, celery, cucumbers, peas, beans, lentils (lentils were a HUGE one for the lower classes) and chickpeas. Honey (the Egyptians were among the first to domesticate bees) and carob were used as sweeteners.
For the wealthy and powerful there was naturally a wider array of foods available. Fruits, nuts, and meats not available to the poor were savoured by the elite. Pomegranates, apricots, apples, peaches, quinces, plums, dates, and grapes were eaten along with walnuts, pistachios, palm nuts, and pine nuts. Grapes (and also pomegranates) were refined into wine, which was an elite industry under the aegis of the nobility who competed for the best vintages and terroirs, not unlike today's winemaking at all, in fact. The most common meat was poultry, generally pigeons, ducks, geese, partridge, and quail (chickens were considered rare and exotic, and were more likely to be found as ornamental animals in zoos and private gardens rather than on tables). Lamb, mutton, and pork were the favoured non-poultry meats, with beef being highly expensive and reserved for special occasions more out of a cultural sense of status around cows rather than a dearth of cattle. Antelope were also domesticated and kept in pens. Mice and hedgehogs were eaten as snacks. The nobility often diverted themselves by hunting game such as gazelle, hippo, crocodile, ostrich, and hyena. Fish, a stable of the poor, was generally avoided by the rich, and priests of the god Osiris were forbidden to eat fish due to a myth claiming that after Osiris was killed (a second time) and hacked into pieces by his brother, Set, his penis was thrown in the Nile and eaten by an oxyrhynchus fish.
Sexual practices were actually not too dissimilar from what we may consider normal today... Pre-marital sex, notably for women as well as men, was not considered taboo, and was even expected (gotta love killer birth control methods...). Once a couple was married, however, fidelity was taken VERY seriously, and if evidence of a partner's unfaithfulness could be produced at a divorce trial, he or she would get nothing in the settlement.
Attitudes to homosexuality are a bit murkier. At some periods attitudes seem to have been negative, and in others it ranged from "don't ask - don't tell" to "oh, whatever, it's all good...". That said attitudes towards the receptive versus penetrative partner were similar to other Mediterranean cultures of the time.
I'm honestly not sure, I haven't probed particularly deeply into that area... I'll get back to you on that.
Yeah, the Prince of Egypt is actually pretty spectacularly accurate in a lot of ways... Except for the glaring "Hebrews being enslaved in Egypt" inaccuracy
That site looks pretty good, actually. Goes into quite a lot of detail! As for the Egyptian language in "The Mummy"... Well, in first movie it kind of sucked... But in "The Mummy Returns" it actually got much, much better, like, to the point of being intelligible without subtitles.
The letter Ш/ш (Š/š) and by extension its derivation Щ/щ (Šč/šč) are both derived from the Coptic letter shai, which was ultimate derived from this hieroglyph:
Though, FUN FACT, technically ALL scripts that can be traced back to Phoenician (i.e. Latin, Greek, Cyrillic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic, Brahmic scripts such as Devanagari etc.) are ultimately derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs. Phoenician was based on the Proto-Sinaitic script, which was just simplified Egyptian hieroglyphs adopted to write a Semitic language. The letter "A" in the Latin script in which I'm typing ultimately comes from an Egyptian hieroglyph depicting an ox head.
The more powerful units should have been Hellenistic, such as phalanx troops, companion cavalry, and so on. Levy troops should have been the native Egyptians, and they should have done away with the pharaohs, chariots, and camels entirely.
They were a group of tribes of uncertain origin who formed part of a wave of maritime and over-land raiders and pillagers that terrorized the ancient eastern Mediterranean as part of the "Bronze Age Collapse" that paved the way for the Neo-Assyrian Empire and the Iron Age. They precipitated the collapse of the Mycenaean civilization and the Hittite Empire, and destroyed many ancient cities along the Levantine coast. They made a sort of coalition with the Libu, Libyan Berber tribes who inhabited the deserts to the west of Egypt, and first invaded en-masse during the reign of Merneptah (the successor of Ramesses II "the Great"). Merneptah repulsed them, but they would try again on two fronts during the reign of Ramesses III, who defeated them decisively, annihilating many tribes, taking a number of prisoners, and forcing one group, the Peleset (Philistines) to settle in a region that would later be called "Palestine" after them.
Lipstick was probably invented in order to moisturize and protect the lips from damage in the hot, dry climate. Any desirable aesthetic side-effects were likely coincidental.
Answering this, finally.
I've been looking around, and it seems as though the answer to your question is: No, there aren't any substantial pre-Ptolemaic sources on Egyptian cuisine, at least not readily available. They may be in some sort of scholarly journal or book, by I don't have access to those resources at the moment.
This is probably due to the restriction of literacy in Egyptian society prior to the Late and Ptolemaic periods, when the Demotic and Greek scripts came into wide use. These were evidently much easier to learn than the Medu-Netjeru - the sacred hieroglyphic script that to many is such an iconic symbol of Egyptian civilization. Literacy was the domain of the priesthood and the bureaucracy, and none of them seem to have been too concerned with recipes, cuisine, or food in general beyond thing like "The Estate of Anhai produces 500 bushels of barley" etc.
It's kind of a pity, really... I'd love to be able to go to an "authentic" Ancient Egyptian restaurant
I've been looking around, and it seems as though the answer to your question is: No, there aren't any substantial pre-Ptolemaic sources on Egyptian cuisine, at least not readily available. They may be in some sort of scholarly journal or book, by I don't have access to those resources at the moment.
This is probably due to the restriction of literacy in Egyptian society prior to the Late and Ptolemaic periods, when the Demotic and Greek scripts came into wide use. These were evidently much easier to learn than the Medu-Netjeru - the sacred hieroglyphic script that to many is such an iconic symbol of Egyptian civilization. Literacy was the domain of the priesthood and the bureaucracy, and none of them seem to have been too concerned with recipes, cuisine, or food in general beyond thing like "The Estate of Anhai produces 500 bushels of barley" etc.
It's kind of a pity, really... I'd love to be able to go to an "authentic" Ancient Egyptian restaurant
Have you read Toby Wilkinson's "The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt"? I skimmed through a bit of it in the library, but the author seemed curiously determined to emphasize the tyrannical and ideological nature of Pharonic rule, which strikes me as oddly Whiggish: I was wondering whether it was worth the read.
Bruce
Bruce
Not a question, but you should do a timeline where Ancient Egypt gets modern food crops from Old and New World, and knowledge of oil extraction and the combustion engine . (would be ASB of course)
Actually here's a question. Speaking of oil, did they have surface oil/petroleum seeps, and if so, how did they use them? I think Ancient Mesopotamia used them.
. (would be ASB of course)Actually here's a question. Speaking of oil, did they have surface oil/petroleum seeps, and if so, how did they use them? I think Ancient Mesopotamia used them.
It's actually one of the main reference books I'm using for my TL. It gives a very good overview of Egyptian history - far more in depth than a lot of others, but you're absolutely right about the author's emphasis. He seems to have his pants in a twist throughout the whole book about how authoritarian the government was, and how brutal it could be. You just end up wanting to scream in his face: "Of course it was that way, it was the FREAKING BRONZE AGE". It also betrays, I think, despite his tremendous knowledge of Egyptian history, a fundamental disconnect with the ancient Egyptians in their relationship with their state. Ancient Egypt was kind of like Russia, in a sense - they were used to authoritarian governments, and from a theological standpoint in their religion such a system was actually desirable. They WANTED strong kings. He seems to think throughout, though, that if only one of them had gotten their hands on some Rousseau or Montesquieu they would have immediately risen up and kicked the Pharaoh to the curb...
Not a question, but you should do a timeline where Ancient Egypt gets modern food crops from Old and New World, and knowledge of oil extraction and the combustion engine
Keep reading the TL in my signature
Of course, it's not really Ancient Egypt that will be developing those technologies (faaaaar down the line)... More like a civilization that's Ancient Egypt's direct cultural and ethno-linguistic descendant, like modern China to the Han dynasty.
I've never encountered anything anywhere saying that they did. I've seen references to the use of "oil lamps", but that could be referring to a vegetable oil rather than petroleum.