Asian trade republics?

Zeldar155

Banned
Is it possible to have trade republics like Venice and Genoa on the Chinese Coast around the same time in the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries? I have one idea how that could happen: Somehow (Succesion crisis, turmoil, whatever) China collapses into seperate states, the Coastal cities and villages becoming reliant on trade leading to more power to the merchants instead of the nobility.

Is this possible?
 
Definitely not by then. The notion of a unified Chinese imperial court had been so ingrained that it's an article of faith. When a dynasty does disintegrate, it inevitably will be united by one warring faction.

Having said that, many coastal Chinese cities have been famed for trade prowess, leaving them effectively ruled by merchant clans rather than bureaucrats sent from afar. And besides, these coastal cities need protection from Japanese and Korean raiders which only a large continent-based army can provide.
 

Zeldar155

Banned
Definitely not by then. The notion of a unified Chinese imperial court had been so ingrained that it's an article of faith. When a dynasty does disintegrate, it inevitably will be united by one warring faction.

Having said that, many coastal Chinese cities have been famed for trade prowess, leaving them effectively ruled by merchant clans rather than bureaucrats sent from afar. And besides, these coastal cities need protection from Japanese and Korean raiders which only a large continent-based army can provide.

Earlier then, and I suppose that one might have to even prevent China from forming in the first place or permanently crumbling after the first emperor of Qin dies.
Any suggestions on the Korean and Japanese raiders?
 
Earlier then, and I suppose that one might have to even prevent China from forming in the first place or permanently crumbling after the first emperor of Qin dies.
Any suggestions on the Korean and Japanese raiders?

Well, the Korean and Japanese raiders were much later than the era of Chinese reunification. I could suggest changing the Battle of Changping, in 260 BCE, which made Qin the strongest power among the Warring States. Killing the First Emperor is probably too late, but not necessarily.

However, this might prevent Chinese expansion to the south. The State of Chu is the one in the best position to expand to Zhejiang or Fujian, but there's no guarantee that it would. Imagining it stretching all the way to Guangdong or Guangxi seems also difficult.
 
Well, the Korean and Japanese raiders were much later than the era of Chinese reunification. I could suggest changing the Battle of Changping, in 260 BCE, which made Qin the strongest power among the Warring States. Killing the First Emperor is probably too late, but not necessarily.

However, this might prevent Chinese expansion to the south. The State of Chu is the one in the best position to expand to Zhejiang or Fujian, but there's no guarantee that it would. Imagining it stretching all the way to Guangdong or Guangxi seems also difficult.

So, basically, China below the Yangtze remains Austronesian in language and Culture, instead of becoming Sinicized?
 
So, basically, China below the Yangtze remains Austronesian in language and Culture, instead of becoming Sinicized?

Well, the state of Chu could still expand, so there might continue to be Chinese influences in a sort of trick-down effect. To keep Chu stronger, prevent Qin from taking Shu and Ba.

I think it's a neat idea, but I don't know how likely it would be, for the state of Chu to conquer Shu and Ba on its own, and then found its own maritime empire and possess the entirety of Southern China. I know Chu wasn't quite as culturally Chinese as the Yellow River Valley, so it would be a really interesting idea for China to be split into these Chu and Zhou strains. But I don't know much about this area so I wouldn't say anything assertively.
 
The maritime states of India would probably be better candidates. Places like Cochin, Calicut and Muziris. IOTL they were already small trading kingdoms from the 14th to the 18th century- you just need to develop the idea of a republic. There have been republics in India historically but those were fmuch farther back in history and in the North so it's probably not feasible to have those as examples.
 
Could Singapore be founded much earlier than OTL?

IIRC there were villages there before, but the modern city wasn't founded until sometime in the 19th Century.

Flocc,

Could you elaborate about the republics? I've never heard of republics in ancient India.
 

Zeldar155

Banned
Could Singapore be founded much earlier than OTL?

IIRC there were villages there before, but the modern city wasn't founded until sometime in the 19th Century.

Flocc,

Could you elaborate about the republics? I've never heard of republics in ancient India.

I've never heard of them either. And this discussion isn't simply limited to China, India or Singapore could be possible candidates aswell.
 
Could Singapore be founded much earlier than OTL?

IIRC there were villages there before, but the modern city wasn't founded until sometime in the 19th Century.

Flocc,

Could you elaborate about the republics? I've never heard of republics in ancient India.

Singapore, or Temasek as it was then was a trading port in the 12th to 13th century. It was sacked and its royal family relocated to found Malacca.

As for the Indian republics there's no concrete evidence but there are references in Hindu scriptures to gana sangha which are supposed to have been states governed by oligarchic councils rather than a single monarch.

If we're talking abut South India you could perhaps see a situation in which one of the major trading cities becomes controlled by a council of oligarchs. Perhaps a civil war eliminates any royal contenders and the various factions decide to govern in concert or something.
 
As for the Indian republics there's no concrete evidence but there are references in Hindu scriptures to gana sangha which are supposed to have been states governed by oligarchic councils rather than a single monarch.

Fascinating. Do they say where in India the gana sanghas were, and what happened to them? Is there anything about the governmental structure - did the gana sanghas follow the usual model for ancient republics (aristocratic senate plus military assembly)? Are the scriptures in question old enough that this could conceivably be a reference to the Indus Valley civilization, where the cities lacked the self-aggrandizing palace/temple architecture associated with Bronze Age monarchy?
 
The maritime states of India would probably be better candidates. Places like Cochin, Calicut and Muziris. IOTL they were already small trading kingdoms from the 14th to the 18th century- you just need to develop the idea of a republic. There have been republics in India historically but those were fmuch farther back in history and in the North so it's probably not feasible to have those as examples.

What about Gujarat?
 
You could do this with Hong Kong and Macau without too many problems(Hell, OTL's Singapore kinda counts as one already.). Maybe the U.S., Britain, or perhaps even Australia, offers to become a protector of sorts, giving HK(or Macau) enough money to build a substantial enough military force to protect themselves in all but the worst of situations, as well as developing infrastructure and such? Once that's done, it shouldn't be all that hard to build it up into a world-class city compared to many others. Truth is, HK was in a prime position for such development and so was Macau(my only question is, why didn't Macau grow quite as large?).
 
There's an issue with Chinese culture, surely? In the Chinese social hierarchy, merchants were rock bottom, akin to beggars on the street if I recall. The issue was that they didn't directly produce anything which contributed to the economy, they only acted as middle-men, so in the Chinese mindset they were just interlopers who got rich on other peoples' labour - the ultimate undesirables. The problem was bad enough that successful merchants often bought land and became simple peasant farmers, because it was a step up the social ladder.

In this situation, a merchant republic seems highly unlikely. Even reckoning without the strength of the Imperial government, no-one outside of the merchant class wants to be a merchant, and they certainly don't want to be ruled by one. It's like hypothecising about a "true communist" republic in medieval Europe - anyone with even a little money or land has incentive to actively oppose the idea, so it would never happen. The likely response to a Chinese city becoming controlled by its merchants would probably be violence and a massacre of the merchant class.

Now, India is a far more palatable idea.
 
Well, the state of Chu could still expand, so there might continue to be Chinese influences in a sort of trick-down effect. To keep Chu stronger, prevent Qin from taking Shu and Ba.

I think it's a neat idea, but I don't know how likely it would be, for the state of Chu to conquer Shu and Ba on its own, and then found its own maritime empire and possess the entirety of Southern China. I know Chu wasn't quite as culturally Chinese as the Yellow River Valley, so it would be a really interesting idea for China to be split into these Chu and Zhou strains. But I don't know much about this area so I wouldn't say anything assertively.

It's possible that without Qin Shihuang, there would be no "China" as a single nation. But the cultural ideal had already existed for well over a thousand years and there would be many kings and princes ruling over separate "Chinese" states, like in pre-unification Germany and Italy. Some Yue kingdoms will inevitably adopt a more maritime lifestyle, but are too large to be considered trading city states.

You could do this with Hong Kong and Macau without too many problems(Hell, OTL's Singapore kinda counts as one already.). Maybe the U.S., Britain, or perhaps even Australia, offers to become a protector of sorts, giving HK(or Macau) enough money to build a substantial enough military force to protect themselves in all but the worst of situations, as well as developing infrastructure and such? Once that's done, it shouldn't be all that hard to build it up into a world-class city compared to many others. Truth is, HK was in a prime position for such development and so was Macau(my only question is, why didn't Macau grow quite as large?).
What's in the interest of the WASP powers to "protect" Hong Kong? Whoever rules China (which also provides all of Hong Kong's food and water) will be too powerful and too large for them to afford to annoy. Besides, when Thatcher merely tried to drag on discussions over Hong Kong, Deng merely responded that he could send his troops in this afternoon, to which Thatcher is said to have turned her face white and then tripped down a flight of stairs. They could try a Berlin Airlift to support Hong Kong, but then it cannot be a trading hub.

Finally, Macau is already the densest region on earth and is too small to physically fit anything else.

P.S. The kingdoms which arose from the Malay Islands fit the OP's description. Many only directly controlled their main city and an immediate hinterland, and built a tributary system to form an "empire".
 
Fascinating. Do they say where in India the gana sanghas were, and what happened to them? Is there anything about the governmental structure - did the gana sanghas follow the usual model for ancient republics (aristocratic senate plus military assembly)? Are the scriptures in question old enough that this could conceivably be a reference to the Indus Valley civilization, where the cities lacked the self-aggrandizing palace/temple architecture associated with Bronze Age monarchy?

They were in the Gangetic plain. There's very little known about them. Literally the only thing known is that gana sangha were states ruled by councils (which is what sangha or sangham means). What these councils were and who made them up is not known. If I were to bet I'd guess that yes, it was probably a council of nobles.

No- definitely not the Indus Valley civilisation. These were post-Vedic states

What about Gujarat?

Also possible
 
I wonder if you couldn't end up this way with the Champa states. Perhaps using Ibadi visitors as a spark for a Republican-style idea? Perhaps in conjunction with a Song conquest of Dai Viet?
 
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