(As-of-yet-unnamed) Gothic Empire TL

The thing I said might happen this summer has happened. Here's the world in 1264, with some stuff from later as well. The depth of the wordbuilding has taken a bit of a hit as I just don't have the wherewithal to spend so, so much time coming up with the details anymore, but I hope the aesthetics make up for it.

1264.png
 
Timeline's also got muslims, of course. This is the one part that goes a bit beyond 815 AD as I've included the Muslim Civil War and subsequent schisms within both of the two "official" branches (at least the two that have Imams), Sunni (which is closer to OTL Shia) and Ulami (which is basically OTL Ibadism). The major change here, which I'm chalking up to butterflies, is that Ali is pretty unanimously named the Successor to the Messenger of God after the death of Muhammed; there are still the Ridda Wars and two minor schism of the so-called "Dissenters" (see OTL Khawarij but less extreme, mostly), but there isn't the break between a group who thought he should be the first succesor and a group who thought Abu Bakr or whoever should.

The major absolute difference between OTL Islamic theology and Sunni theology ITTL is about leadership. Sunnis here (mostly, Sahiris excluded, who have ideas similar to OTL Shia ideas of 'the occultation') believe that there should always be a single leader of the community, the Imam, who functions as the successor to Muhammed (note: the title "Caliph", while a part of the Imam's full title, is not generally used very often, and is usually reserved by Sunnis (and Ghaybahis) for Ali, who has "Caliph" ("Ali the Successor") as a traditional epithet. This is obviously unlike OTL ideas in Sunnism about the Caliph and Caliphate, or Shia ideas of the Imam and Imamate.

Of note is also that the majority of Sunnis (Ghalibia'is, those that believe Fa'iz was the legitimate successor to Ali III) believe that the Imam should be more of a spiritual and religious leader than a worldly ruler. This mostly comes from the fact that the Imam's worldly power waned after Ali (II) al-Sajjad as the Sultans took up the role of administering the empire ostensibly on his behalf, and that Iskanderiyya, the most powerful of these Sultanates, which largely won the civil war, had chosen Fa'iz to be their Imam, and obviously didn't want him to suddenly start ruling in his own right above the authority of the Sultan.

As mentioned in the initial post I'm quite bad at naming things, so if anyone has better names for some of the branches feel free to suggest them. The Fa'iz faction should be something like "the Majority-ists", but I speak zero Arabic and Google Translate isn't that good.

EDIT: Also of note, this is just a list of imams, i.e leaders of the community. This is not a list of islamic denominations as a whole, as just like in OTL early Islam is incredibly messy and full of different theologies and philosophies that all fall under the same broad denomination. This ain't Christianity where every slight difference in beliefs causes a massive schism and an entirely new Church,

Anyway, here's the diagram:

View attachment 676624
EDIT #2: I forgot to add this to the legend but the little upside-down crosses next to some names signify the same as the ones in the Frankish & Gothic Kings diagram: red is death in combat, black is assassination, green is abdication
This is amazing - how did you make the graphic?
 
The thing I said might happen this summer has happened. Here's the world in 1264, with some stuff from later as well. The depth of the wordbuilding has taken a bit of a hit as I just don't have the wherewithal to spend so, so much time coming up with the details anymore, but I hope the aesthetics make up for it.

1264.png
These just keep getting better!!
 
So the Khitans are ITTL's destroyer of Roman Anatolia. I see the Amida regime was smart enough to surrender without a fight; will they be able to capitalize on a Khitan collapse to unite Anatolia?
Also- how sinicized are the Khitans ittl? I know their leader is the Gur-Khan so probably not as sinicized as the real-life Liao were, but is there any Chinese influence at all?
 
This is amazing - how did you make the graphic?
Everything here is made in Paint.NET

So the Khitans are ITTL's destroyer of Roman Anatolia. I see the Amida regime was smart enough to surrender without a fight; will they be able to capitalize on a Khitan collapse to unite Anatolia?
Also- how sinicized are the Khitans ittl? I know their leader is the Gur-Khan so probably not as sinicized as the real-life Liao were, but is there any Chinese influence at all?
First question: yes
Second question: still quite sinicized but, having never ruled an imperal dynasty, their customs are closer to regular steppe nomads than imperial Chinese, and they're going to adapt to the local Arab/Persian/Roman ways of doing things pretty quickly.
 
I know this is a few centuries off, but I'm curious to see how TTL's Age of Exploration will play out. Who will be the first country to begin exploration, who'll settle where, stuff like that.
 
FlaviusAetius got a bit ahead of themselves there, it seems. I'm not gonna call Time of Death here, I'd never want to commit to actually officially Ending a project like that, but we're definetly in some sort of indefinite suspended animation. Might come back during the summer holidays again like last year - maybe we turn posting here into a sort of annual midsummer celebratory event, we could have a festival and form a whole cult around it. Or maybe not. I've still got a bunch of loose threads and ideas hanging out here (which will be elaborated in this post!), but the amount of energy and time I'd need to invest to actually get it to the level of cohesion and quality that I want for this project is just more than I have available. If anyone wants to do covers or steal ideas from this TL then you are more than welcome, that'd be cool as hell.

Alas, the loose ends. This is going to be mostly bullet-point style text.
Europe
- At some point between 1264 and 1300, the Burgundian War ends in a tentative and completely unsustainable status quo, with both the Burgundian King and the Arrageois claiming Emperorship , with a handful of Francian feudal states (mostly in Neustria) supporting the former, and everyone else supporting the latter, at least on paper. In reality the disastrous events of Arrageois rule (i.e the Burgundian War) is going to lead to them being very unpopular. Once this status quo inevitably collapses we're probably gonna see a more powerful eastern Germania (i.e east of the Rhine watershed) within the Empire, probably with Thuringia at its head, a Francian emperorship with mostly solid control of Neustria, Austrasia and the sort of "Greater Rhineland" region, and a non-emperor Burgundy, fully independent and pursuing their own interests.
- Haven't really though of much with England but Northumbria is probably going to eventually be subsumed, maybe if trouble begins in Scandinavia (with Sweden?) and the kingdom's focus leaves Northumbria. Personal Union between the Kingdom of the English and the Earldom of Northumbria? Sounds cool to me. Scotland's still definetly gonna be out of the English king's reach. Also just realised that I forgot to colour in Ireland on the 1264 map - sorry to them, I didn't mean to imply anything about their civilzation or lack thereof.
- Gothia is going to continue its decline of imperial authority. The League in the Alps becomes more independent (at least from Gothia - Burgundy might come knocking later), direct imperial authority disappears outside of the city of Ravenna and the directly-administered territories: the remains of the Austroreiki and the Southern March. Maybe ending up with like medieval Italian city-state-mercenary-warfare crossbred with Sengoku-era Japan? At least until outside powers decide to put an end to things. The Buthayrids are going to remain solidly in charge of the south, but the population is going to become increasingly syncretic, probably into a vague "Monotheism" refuted by both Christians and Muslims alike.
- Ispania and Burgundy are going to continue to duke it out over the southern parts of the former lands of the Tolosan Crown, probably ending with a unification of Iberia under Ispanian and everlasting intractable border-conflicts along the Pyrenees with competing claims and shifting alliances of local nobles. Maybe Ispanian eventually kicks over Sigilmassa and expans into OTL Morocco, or even does Portugal-style exploration around Africa?
- One big idea I've had is a shortlived pagan Lithuanian Empire that destroys the status quo in Eastern Europe, weakening the kingdom of Kiev and giving space for the Poles to unify. This would result in the closest thing this TL is going to get to a Crusade, as German and Polish forces "heroically" "fight back" the "pagan hordes," in turn colonising the region as IOTL. Not gonna be anything like the German Order states, though; German houses already rule those regions by 1264, with Slavic and Baltic populations. The pacification and conversion of the Baltic regions will here be driven by merchants and minority-nobles, not holy warriors. The loss of control over the Rus states by Kiev will also facilitate Khalish expanding its authority into the Dnieper region, even as it loses control in Poland.
West Asia
The one Big Thing here is the Khitai invasions around the turn of the century. They're going to finally clean up the vestiges of the great Iranian empires (although the Sassanids will of course stick around in Derbend - I've decided they're a constant in this TL, like San Marino or some such). The Varazian rump states, the Isbijabid Shahdom and the many petty-Shahs of the Iranian Plateau are all gonna be wiped away by the Khitans, much like the states of this region were IOTL by the Mongols. Look at the little insert on the 1264 map for their greatest extent. Additionally like the Mongols, this empire won't last long. They'll establish a new capital in Mesopotamia, somewhat akin to how Baghdad was first established. The eastern provinces will be given away to the sons of the Gurkhan, the Levant will become de-facto independent while still serving tribute to the imperial capital. The adopted eldest son of the Gurkhan will establish his own independent regime in Egypt, and Anatolia will fall into complete chaos.
- The fighting between the two Roman Empires has resulted in an economic depression in Asia Minor. However, as warfare has continued sporadically in the east, the west has seen prosperity and peace. The Kamateroi solidified Roman control of the Balkans through their wars, and the Cappadocians have invested heavily in this region, with refugees from the east settling here. The Slavic tribes that settles Hellas in earlier centuries have been almost entirely Romanized, and cities like Adrianople and Thessaloniki have grown to be little New Constantinoples. When the Khitai hordes arrive in the east, shattering the status quo, the Roman Empire of Constantinople will not collapse like it did to earlier great invasions, but maintain itself in the west. Meanwhile, the Amidan Roman Empire will also survive and thrive, albeit under completely different circumstances; they will enthusiastically bend the knee to the Gurkhan, maintaining much of their administrative apparatus. Once the Khitans disintegrate and the various nomadic groups who settles the Anatolian highlands become independent, a period of scrambling follows. Amida capitalises on this, and unifies Anatolia up to a handful of cities on the west coast, which remain in Constantinopolitan rule. Maybe moving their capital to Nicomedia or Nicaea or some such? Great opportunity for confusion with a Western Roman Empire based in Constantinople and an Eastern Roman Empire based in Asia Minor.
- Khitan Gurkhanate maintains control in its two capitals: the unnamed new city in Mesopotamia, and Tabriz in Azerbaijan. The northernmost part of the empire (check the map) turns into a nomad confederacy with Turkic tribes; Khorasan and Turan become an independent Khanate.
India
I've only got one thing here, which is that the Khanate of Qiqan are going to be a sort of equivalent to the Ghurids (or even Babur) here, and are going to conquer northern India. They're going to destroy Maryul, finally ending the Yarlung dynasty (who ruled the Tibetan Empire), and eventually also conquer Bengal and put an end to the Palas. Maybe end up with apex borders similar to the OTL Delhi Sultanate?
China
The Guang are going to survive their civil war, but completely weakened. See the Guang Empire post for more on this, but the dynasty isn't going to really be the Guang anymore; a Han noble who married a Guang princess and was granted the family name (like a reverse of the Later Tang) will be elevated by a powerful Han scholar-aristocrat. The war will end with Guang control of the north and chaos in the south. The Central Plain will continue to be rife with banditry and poverty long after, and the Guang won't be long for this world. Probably retreat further and further north, similar to the Northern Yuan of OTL. China will eventually be reunified by some native dynasty, of course, who will have to wrangle with the madmen of the Kingdom of Light and Harmony.
- Manicheaism is probably going to be looked upon unfavourably afterwards, but its impact on (south-eastern) Chinese culture is by now intractable, and stamping it out would require several genocides.
- The Vietnamese are going to maintain control of much more of the south for much longer than IOTL, and this will result in the south being even more distinct from the north than they are IOTL.
- Maybe some stuff with the Koreans re-establishing Balhae and subjugating the Mohe/Jurchens?
- The Naiman Khanate is going to capitalise on the Guang losing control, and expand into being a much bigger historical player than IOTL.
- Thailand never becomes Thailand ITTL; the Thais stay up around Hom Khao, settling heavily in northern (and maybe central?) Burma and over into Assam (stronger Ahom kingdom!). This will probably put an end to the Dali Kingdom's ambitions in the south - perhaps just in time for them to turn their attention to a (once again) collapsing China? Bai conquest-dynasty in the Xinan?

That's the most of it. I've been struggling with actually telling myself this project is dead because I had all this stuff still cooking, but I don't see myself doing anything more with it, so now I've gotten it out of my system. So long.
 
As of yet unnamed never even got a proper name :( It was a fun ride, thank you for putting together all the previous updates and giving us some closure in shape of the bullet points.
 
A tragedy that it has to end. But it was certainly one of the greatest TL's I have seen. Someone needs to turn the Gothic Empire TL into an EU4 mod!

Also I know it has been asked to kingdom come by this point probably, but how does the linguistic situation look like in Europe?
Or rather me asking about the linguistic situation of Gothic, Continental West Germanic and English.
 
A tragedy that it has to end. But it was certainly one of the greatest TL's I have seen. Someone needs to turn the Gothic Empire TL into an EU4 mod!

Also I know it has been asked to kingdom come by this point probably, but how does the linguistic situation look like in Europe?
Or rather me asking about the linguistic situation of Gothic, Continental West Germanic and English.
I'm not that into the linguistics but I imagine it's not that different. English has less Latin influence, since there wasn't much of a Norman Invasion and the imported continental aristocracy was mostly from further East into Germany rather than France like IOTL. Occitan/Aquitanian/Burgundian Frankish is going to maintain a much more seperate and distinct character, while (northern) French maintains more of the Frankish language than IOTL (maybe becoming more something like Walloon, basically French but with some Germanic traits?). Gothic/Italian and Frankish/French would have more Germanic influence on orthography (obvious with Gothic since they keep using their own alphabet for at least a little while).
 
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I'm not that into the linguistics but I imagine it's not that different. English has less Latin influence, since there wasn't much of a Norman Invasion and the imported continental aristocracy was mostly from further East into Germany rather than France like IOTL. Occitan/Aquitanian/Burgundian Frankish is going to maintain a much more seperate and distinct character, while (northern) French maintains more of the Frankish language than IOTL (maybe becoming more something like Walloon, basically French but with some Germanic traits?). Gothic/Italian and Frankish/French would have more Germanic influence on orthography (obvious with Gothic since they keep using their own alphabet for at least a little while).
So I suppose that German/Some Continental Germanic dialect is the dominant language in the Roman Empire of the West.
 
So I suppose that German/Some Continental Germanic dialect is the dominant language in the Roman Empire of the West.
Yeah. The Lingua Franca is Latin as IOTL and there isn't any kind of "official language" enforced from above to marginalise local languages (that's a much more modern invention in most cases), so people speak whatever language or dialect they've always spoken, while then also knowing Latin to communicate. Geographically the majority langauge would be a derivation of Frankish, so closer to Dutch than modern German, while eastern and southern Germany speak more or less the same as what they did IOTL. The territory of Austria is different from OTL though, with the Lombardic influence creating a dialect that'd probably sound very weird to speakers of OTL German.
 
I'm not that into the linguistics but I imagine it's not that different. English has less Latin influence, since there wasn't much of a Norman Invasion and the imported continental aristocracy was mostly from further East into Germany rather than France like IOTL. Occitan/Aquitanian/Burgundian Frankish is going to maintain a much more seperate and distinct character, while (northern) French maintains more of the Frankish language than IOTL (maybe becoming more something like Walloon, basically French but with some Germanic traits?). Gothic/Italian and Frankish/French would have more Germanic influence on orthography (obvious with Gothic since they keep using their own alphabet for at least a little while).
May be. CK3 mod better?))
 
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