ARW Invasion of Canada: Problems

[galanx]

For those with more knowledge of the American Revolutionary War than me- pretty well everybody-

In my New Albion TL (soon to be added to) I've hit the ARW. This TL requires the Americans to take Quebec.

Any ATL I've seen based on a United North America with an ARW POD basically says: "1775 - Arnold and Montgomery take Quebec"- or some variant of it.

Now, there's plenty of ways for that to happen- Arnold gets a better boat-builder, Montgomery captures Carleton, the frigate Lizard gets hit by a winter storm and is unable to bring reinforcements to the British....

But- once they take it, can they hold it?
Assume that news of this great feat inspires a wave of enthusiasm to send assistance, can supplies and more troops reach Quebec before April 1776 when the British show up with 8,000 reinforcements? I know 2,000 reached there in March, but that wasn't considered enough- how many would it take if they'd already captured the citadel? And could the British run the St. Lawrence and simply bypass them?

Yes, I know about Google- they're not very good on What-ifs

 

[DuQuense]

Given that the British control both Fort Halifax and Fort Lousisbourg there is no need to run the St Lawerence.

I think the main problem Arnold and Montgonery had was that they were out in the Cold Winter, while the British were warn and snug inside the Walls,
If you can turn it around somehow [?american symathizer opens the gate?] then I think they have the forces to hold it.

 

[The Man]

Have Canada rebel too.

 

[Nicole]

Have Canada rebel too.

How? The Revolutionaries were quite anti-Catholic and anti-French, while the British were supporting the rights of the Catholic French... see which sides supported the Quebec Act, for example.

 

[The Man]

How? The Revolutionaries were quite anti-Catholic and anti-French, while the British were supporting the rights of the Catholic French... see which sides supported the Quebec Act, for example.

Have more Catholics immigrate to america.

French Hugenots come to power and persecute them. They settle in the 13 making America way more pro-Catholic.

 

[Nicole]

Have more Catholics immigrate to america.

French Hugenots come to power and persecute them. They settle in the 13 making America way more pro-Catholic.

The problem was that Catholics were quite oppressed in the British colonies, just as they were in mainland Britain. Why flee there when you can go to Catholic-ruled New Spain, where you can practice your religion freely?

 

[The Man]

The problem was that Catholics were quite oppressed in the British colonies, just as they were in mainland Britain. Why flee there when you can go to Catholic-ruled New Spain, where you can practice your religion freely?

To the best of my knowledge that was not inforced in the colonies. Have this trend start early. Maybe they originally settle in dutch territory than it becomes englis they stay.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

galanx, it sounds like you have an interesting POD so let's see if we can help...

Two issues arise: We need to explain why Canadian/Quebec attitudes are no longer so anti-US and pro-UK, otherwise the British undoubtedly see a chance to retake vast areas with little effort and do so, even if the US is holding Canada. We also need to deploy a stronger American force in the first place.

What about Ben Franklin's old proposal for a union of the colonies including the Iroquis Confederation as a member? Have it shot down back in London but adhered to in reality though not on paper. By 1776 the colonies have finally developed just enough respect for the Iroquis to invite them to take part in Philadelphia and with the British native allies not only removed but actually flipped all of Canada could fall!

 

[Mike Stearns]

How? The Revolutionaries were quite anti-Catholic and anti-French, while the British were supporting the rights of the Catholic French... see which sides supported the Quebec Act, for example.

You could do it actually. The Quebec Act stated that the French-Canadians were to be allowed to keep their languge and religon. However, Govenor General Carleton received secret orders from London to force the French Canadians to speak english and to convert to the Anglican faith, orders which Carleton totally ignored. However, if he decided to carry them out, he could concievable have been faced with mass revolts. It doesn't mean that Canada would have been absorbed into the United States, but it would mean that Britain would lose ALL of her North American possessions, not just the Thirteen Colonies.

 

[The Man]

You could do it actually. The Quebec Act stated that the French-Canadians were to be allowed to keep their languge and religon. However, Govenor General Carleton received secret orders from London to force the French Canadians to speak english and to convert to the Anglican faith, orders which Carleton totally ignored. However, if he decided to carry them out, he could concievable have been faced with mass revolts. It doesn't mean that Canada would have been absorbed into the United States, but it would mean that Britain would lose ALL of her North American possessions, not just the Thirteen Colonies.

Maybe later on Canada would go the way o the Rep. of Texas.

 

[Mike Stearns]

Maybe later on Canada would go the way o the Rep. of Texas.

Potentially. As I said, Canada probaby wouldn't merge with the United States, but it might be enough for the French-Canadians to follow the American example and declare war.

 

[Archangel Michael]

How? The Revolutionaries were quite anti-Catholic and anti-French, while the British were supporting the rights of the Catholic French... see which sides supported the Quebec Act, for example.

Oh yeah, the Revolutionaries were extremley anti-French. Remind me how they won the war again.

The problem was that Catholics were quite oppressed in the British colonies, just as they were in mainland Britain. Why flee there when you can go to Catholic-ruled New Spain, where you can practice your religion freely?

The Quebec Act of 1774 allowed for Roman Catholics to practice freely and reestablished French common law in Quebec. That was one of the reason why Canada didn't join in the rebellion.

 

[DuQuense]

drop back to 1772 and have the MP who proposed the Quebec Act, get hit by a carriage or somesuch

Or easier still have Govenor General Carleton replaced in 1772 by a closet Anti Catholic.
Two years of Anti Catholic Feeling and then he trys to undercut the Quebec Act.
By 1776 the Quebecers are feed up, join the rebellion, and Nova Scotia becomes intenentable

Of couse this means the French in Quebec get to keep northern Vermont, but thats a different POD.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Oh yeah, the Revolutionaries were extremley anti-French. Remind me how they won the war again.



The Quebec Act of 1774 allowed for Roman Catholics to practice freely and reestablished French common law in Quebec. That was one of the reason why Canada didn't join in the rebellion.

The Colonies had the Puritans legacy, and they remember that they fought New France in the past... Really, you think they'd like more 'papists frogs' in the fold?

 

[Dave Howery]

one thing I've always wondered is just why the rebels were so dead bent on having Canada... why did they want the place, exactly? And why Quebec? Why not Nova Scotia or Newfoundland?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Many of the New Englanders believed that the Quebec Act was proof that Catholic influence was creeping into Whitehall, or something to that effect.

 

[Nicole]

Oh yeah, the Revolutionaries were extremley anti-French. Remind me how they won the war again.

There's a difference between accepting French aid and accepting tons of Frenchmen into your state.

The Quebec Act of 1774 allowed for Roman Catholics to practice freely and reestablished French common law in Quebec. That was one of the reason why Canada didn't join in the rebellion.

But the post I responded to dealt with more Roman Catholics coming into the Thirteen Colonies, which did not have any sort of Quebec Act-like legislation.

 

[Darkling]

The most likely result of more Catholics in the 13 colonies is the British finding more loyalists which could pose a serious problems for the rebels if those loyalists are located in a strategically important area.

 

[Fire God]

one thing I've always wondered is just why the rebels were so dead bent on having Canada... why did they want the place, exactly? And why Quebec? Why not Nova Scotia or Newfoundland?

Yes, I was thinking of the same thing. I read a wiki article that the area of present day New Brunswick had most of their population favouring the American over British. It even said that it was a possible fourteenth colony if the natives (Acadians?) were better organized, or as I assume, helped by the Rebels.

 

[Viriato]

You could do it actually. The Quebec Act stated that the French-Canadians were to be allowed to keep their languge and religon. However, Govenor General Carleton received secret orders from London to force the French Canadians to speak english and to convert to the Anglican faith, orders which Carleton totally ignored.

Ok I have to say it but that's utter bs... Show me a credible source alluding to these "secret orders" from London. First of all, the British government could care less what language the king's subjects spoke. At that time nationalism based on language had noe come into existence, this would be a product of the next century. King George III had subjects that spoke a variety of languages both in Europe and in America. From 1778 to 1786 the Governor of Quebec was a Swiss-born French-speaker, Sir Frederick Haldimand, born François-Louis-Frédéric Haldimand in Switzerland. The British could care less what language the Canadiens spoke and were content as long as they remained loyal (unlike the Acadians).

From 1759 onwards the British had acted consistently on their policies towards the Canadiens. Upon conquest in 1759, the British agreed to the Articles of Capitulation of Quebec, and in 1760 of Montreal. The British agreed to allow the Canadians to continue practising Catholicism and to guarantee the rights of the clergy and the seigneurs. In return the Canadiens were loyal to the crown and most importantly to their church. In the Treaty of Paris, the British once again agreed to uphold the rights of the Canadiens. The troubles in the colonies to the south gave the British even more reasons to keep the Canadiens happy.

Most importantly, one must recognise the differences between two opposite societies at the time, that of Quebec and the rebellious colonies. In Quebec, only 1/3 of the people are literate (I use this term lightly meaning people who could sign their name), most have no concept of self-government having only ever known direct rule. What little formal education does exist is controlled by the Catholic Church. Also, after 1760 most of the French-born elite left to France. The enlightenment has passed them by and unlike the other British colonies there are few educated people, except for members of the clergy that is. In New England, Virginia, etc the Anglo-Americans had been accustomed to self-rule and were exposed to the enlightenment and the majority was literate and adhered to a religion that taught them to interperet the bible and to be analytical. There were universities and a great number of men in engaged in liberal professions. Quebec on the other hand was a hierarchical society with the governor and the Bishop of Quebec at the top. The influence of the Bishop over the Canadiens was immense, Bishop of Quebec, Jean Olivier Briand was afraid of the American ideas and the threat that such a society would pose. He decreed that anyone who were to join the rebels would be denied the sacraments and a Christian burial. In a society where most people are basically a flock of sheep is it any wonder that very few people joined the rebel cause?

The Americans for their part were totally unaware of the differences between Quebec and their colonies. They failed to realise that the Canadiens wanted to preserve their rights. They naively declared that they were going to restore liberty to Quebec, failing to realise that the Canadiens had never had self-rule. In fact when the Anglos who had settled in Quebec began agitating for a legislative assembly, the Canadien seigneurs and church officials lobbied against it. The Americans were as a whole suspicious Catholicism and George Washington had to reprimand his troops for celebrating Guy Fawkes Day prior to the invasion of Quebec.

Here is a description of the Canadiens by an American soldier at the time of the invasion:

"they are very stupid; not one in four hundred could read one word, but that they were very precise in saying their prayers, counting their beads and crossing themselves".