Aruba refinery successfully attacked in 1942?

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nbcman

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"The German auxiliary cruiser Stier was scuttled on 27 September in the Caribbean. This was after Stier sank the American liberty shipSS Stephen Hopkins in a short battle" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Caribbean (my book on auxiliary cruisers is lacking in details, am going by Wiki on this one)

The link to the Battle of the Caribbean includes an interesting bit - the crew of the I-156 still used their deck gun when they ran out of torpedoes. They used hacksaws to cut the damaged part of the barrel off and sank two more merchies on the north side of Puerto Rico with a sawed off 105 mm deck gun.

EDIT: Here is a link to the Coast Artillery command for the detachment which was sent to Aruba.

http://www.lago-colony.com/AMERICANS_IN_ARUBA/COAST ARTILLERY COMMAND.htm

Note the following:

Corporal Bruce Sark of the 166th Infantry may have been the first bugler to sound a real call to arms in the Western Hemisphere during World War II. Although the 37 mm automatic weapons of Battery G, 213th C.A.(AA), had been set up at the Sint Nicholaas wharf and at nearby Camp Sabaneta, they were unable to open fire because of the thick smoke from the burning tankers and generally poor visibility. The 155 mm guns of Battery A, 252nd C.A., were still sitting on the docks where they had been unloaded. However, all troops were alerted, the guard was reinforced, and a complete blackout of the island was ordered.(21)

There wasn't any operational coastal artillery on Aruba at the time of the attack because their guns were in crates on the dock. I-156 attacked at the opportune moment where the previous garrison was stood down and the new garrison was not set up.
 
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I don't think many hit the oil tanks, they hit the refining equipment and wrecked 40% of it...the problem is there was spare capacity that was being unused, so it wasn't necessary.
Aruba was an avgas production facility. Diesel was in one of the tanks, which should be ignitable by a direct HE hit.


They have a gun sight:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/92849-WW2-U-Boat-8-8cm-10-5-cm-deck-gun-optical-sight
Considering the range it is pretty much a direct hit on visible oil tank targets. They were able to direct fire hit some with a 37mm deck gun without night sights. So you're claiming a direct 105mm deck gun hit isn't going to smash and ignite a tank of refined fuel? Also there were no coastal defenses at the time, no coastal artillery, no spot lights, no one to fire back. Despite the deck gun exploding and firing over a dozen 37mm rounds, plus torpedoing two ships in the harbor not a single shot was fired at the surfaced uboat. Hours later an improvised ASW aircraft tried to bomb it with improvised bombs, but had no luck.
The Curacao situation as different, it had coastal defenses and crew that quickly returned fire. We don't know how many German shells were fired before the Dutch returned fire and I don't have a picture of the oil storage situation, so it might have been a different layout and they were further away so had to range in with a number of shots. The Aruba situation was different because they were closer, not dealing with defenses, and had confirmed hits on a tank with a smaller caliber weapon.

Looking at the situation of the refinery on Aruba in present day even if they would hit one of the tanks and it will ignite and the others will go, it won't hurt the refinery itself. Those tanks are stored separate, about 1.5KM away from the refinery. There are tanks at the refinery itself, but much further away from shore. They would hurt the supply, but not the production as much.

And although i haven't got any facts i find it highly doubtful Aruba didn't have any coastal artillery. The wiki says it has 3 shore batteries and 6 naval guns. I believe that betterthan no defenses at all. If the U-boat had been firing continuously on the refinery with the deck gun it would be a lot more visible then with the 37mm flak. It would be spotted and fired upon quickly. There were patrol boats too.

Also, it sunk the ships at Oranjestad whilst the refinery was a San Nicolas. Whilst travelling it would be harder to spot, if at all since they could dive. But firing continuously, is something different. After doing that and having to retire because being fired upon or lack of ammo, they would only get a chance to hit the tankers whilst at deeper water as geting closer to the shore again is gonna be made difficult by increased patrols and searches.

Also, they hit a tank with the 37mm. Big deal, it only dented it. They fired 15 rounds and got only 1 hit. I'd say the optical sight of the 37mm was as good as the deck gun. The captain complained it lacked night vision. That would have increased accuracy. The deck gun was probably less accurate than the 37mm flak anyway because of its size and purpose.

i also doubt the mystery TNT ship was at the refinery. It was most likely at Oranjestad.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Looking at the situation of the refinery on Aruba in present day even if they would hit one of the tanks and it will ignite and the others will go, it won't hurt the refinery itself. Those tanks are stored separate, about 1.5KM away from the refinery. There are tanks at the refinery itself, but much further away from shore. They would hurt the supply, but not the production as much.

And although i haven't got any facts i find it highly doubtful Aruba didn't have any coastal artillery. The wiki says it has 3 shore batteries and 6 naval guns. I believe that betterthan no defenses at all. If the U-boat had been firing continuously on the refinery with the deck gun it would be a lot more visible then with the 37mm flak. It would be spotted and fired upon quickly. There were patrol boats too.

Also, it sunk the ships at Oranjestad whilst the refinery was a San Nicolas. Whilst travelling it would be harder to spot, if at all since they could dive. But firing continuously, is something different. After doing that and having to retire because being fired upon or lack of ammo, they would only get a chance to hit the tankers whilst at deeper water as geting closer to the shore again is gonna be made difficult by increased patrols and searches.

Also, they hit a tank with the 37mm. Big deal, it only dented it. They fired 15 rounds and got only 1 hit. I'd say the optical sight of the 37mm was as good as the deck gun. The captain complained it lacked night vision. That would have increased accuracy. The deck gun was probably less accurate than the 37mm flak anyway because of its size and purpose.

i also doubt the mystery TNT ship was at the refinery. It was most likely at Oranjestad.
The Aruba defenses showed up after the attack. There are no reports from either side that during the attack in February on the Aruba refinery that there was any return fire on the German Uboat. How much more visible could the Uboat have been when the deck gun had a shell explode in the gun, blowing the barrel up and a huge flash? That would have been much brighter than the regular deck gun propellant flash. The shore already knew they were under attack when two ships were first torpedoed. Then they had the deck gun blow up and then the 37mm gun start firing on the shore. Plus all that ended up happening to the Uboat was an improvised aircraft dropping improvised bombs in daylight many hours later, doing nothing to the Uboat.
http://www.lago-colony.com/AMERICANS_IN_ARUBA/About_American_Troops.htm
On February 13, 1942 American troops of the 498th Coastal Artillery Battalion arrived on Aruba and replaced the Cameron Highlanders who had been defending the island since September 3, 1940. The Americans took up residence in the camp at Saveneta and there they remained until the end of the war. The troop transport that carried the Americans to the island carried the Cameron Highlanders off the island for their trip back to Britain.

In addition to the troop transport that brought the men, an American military supply ship, the Henry Gibbons had also come to Aruba with equipment, supplies and 3,000 tons of ammunitions for the American troops. The troop transport had left with the Scottish troops but the supply ship was still in San Nicholas harbor on the night of the U Boat attack.
So the defenses weren't really even set up as of the Uboat attack.

Do you have a WW2 map of the refinery and tanks? It is hard to estimate distance from the 1930s pics I've posted so far.

As to the 37mm gun, it had only a tiny fraction of the HE of the 105mm gun and apparently it was a glancing shot. The sight for the 37mm was not night illuminated according to sources I've already posted, so hitting in the dark, even with a lit up target was tough. The large deck gun was another story because German doctrine was to attack ships at night on the surface with the deck gun they had night sights on the big gun.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/ASW-51/ASW-2.html
Less accurate? It was a large gun with high muzzle velocity. Like the flat firing PAK40, it was meant as a point and shoot weapon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_SK_C/32_naval_gun
It wasn't for indirect fire necessarily and as it was firing at visible direct targets and had a gun sight it could accurately aim at the targets it could see.

I don't know why you don't accept the historical sources that the TNT ship was at the refinery port, there are multiple sources that say it was there and they saw the torpedoing of the other ships at the port.
 
The Aruba defenses showed up after the attack. There are no reports from either side that during the attack in February on the Aruba refinery that there was any return fire on the German Uboat. How much more visible could the Uboat have been when the deck gun had a shell explode in the gun, blowing the barrel up and a huge flash? That would have been much brighter than the regular deck gun propellant flash. The shore already knew they were under attack when two ships were first torpedoed. Then they had the deck gun blow up and then the 37mm gun start firing on the shore. Plus all that ended up happening to the Uboat was an improvised aircraft dropping improvised bombs in daylight many hours later, doing nothing to the Uboat.
http://www.lago-colony.com/AMERICANS_IN_ARUBA/About_American_Troops.htm

So the defenses weren't really even set up as of the Uboat attack.

Do you have a WW2 map of the refinery and tanks? It is hard to estimate distance from the 1930s pics I've posted so far.

As to the 37mm gun, it had only a tiny fraction of the HE of the 105mm gun and apparently it was a glancing shot. The sight for the 37mm was not night illuminated according to sources I've already posted, so hitting in the dark, even with a lit up target was tough. The large deck gun was another story because German doctrine was to attack ships at night on the surface with the deck gun they had night sights on the big gun.
https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/rep/ASW-51/ASW-2.html
Less accurate? It was a large gun with high muzzle velocity. Like the flat firing PAK40, it was meant as a point and shoot weapon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10.5_cm_SK_C/32_naval_gun
It wasn't for indirect fire necessarily and as it was firing at visible direct targets and had a gun sight it could accurately aim at the targets it could see.

I don't know why you don't accept the historical sources that the TNT ship was at the refinery port, there are multiple sources that say it was there and they saw the torpedoing of the other ships at the port.

Of course the explosion of the gunwas bright and loud. But that was only once, they couldn't spot the U-boat from 1 flash. Imagine a series of flashes from the same point. thats what i'm talking about. The smaller flashes of the 37mm is much less visible.

That Lago-Colony website states that there were 155mm guns on Aruba when the americans arrived or had arrived(they were there for 3 days when the attack happened). Certainly searchlights were set up when the attack occured. I think some of the big guns were position for land, but maybe they could be switched to sea quickly? Not sure. I'm positive the British troops on the island before the americans came had more for defences than AA and smaller calibre guns.

I think its safe to assume the tanks are still in the same spot now as they were in 1942, not much other places to relocate. Sint Nicolas is not that big.

Alright, the ammo ship was in Sint Nicolas at the time, still supplying the new American detachment i guess? Shows the focus point of the defenses was the refinery. Did the supply ship have more guns with it?

I wonder why the captain was complaining about the 37mm sights lacking night vision if they were firing on a well lit location...

I do wonder how much time the U-boat would have to fire their shells on the tanks. Also how much chance they have of a hit. 5 shells fired in Curacao scored no hits.

Then again, i also wonder where the patrol boats were after the tankers were hit.
 

nbcman

Donor
Of course the explosion of the gunwas bright and loud. But that was only once, they couldn't spot the U-boat from 1 flash. Imagine a series of flashes from the same point. thats what i'm talking about. The smaller flashes of the 37mm is much less visible.

That Lago-Colony website states that there were 155mm guns on Aruba when the americans arrived or had arrived(they were there for 3 days when the attack happened). Certainly searchlights were set up when the attack occured. I think some of the big guns were position for land, but maybe they could be switched to sea quickly? Not sure. I'm positive the British troops on the island before the americans came had more for defences than AA and smaller calibre guns.

I think its safe to assume the tanks are still in the same spot now as they were in 1942, not much other places to relocate. Sint Nicolas is not that big.

Alright, the ammo ship was in Sint Nicolas at the time, still supplying the new American detachment i guess? Shows the focus point of the defenses was the refinery. Did the supply ship have more guns with it?

I wonder why the captain was complaining about the 37mm sights lacking night vision if they were firing on a well lit location...

I do wonder how much time the U-boat would have to fire their shells on the tanks. Also how much chance they have of a hit. 5 shells fired in Curacao scored no hits.

Then again, i also wonder where the patrol boats were after the tankers were hit.

See my post upthread. The Americans Coastal Artillery Force 1280 had their 37 mm AA guns set up but they didn't fire back due to smoke. Their heavy weapons were still on the dock.
 
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This would have been a far more intelligent choice for Operation Pastorius especially if they used pro-Nazi Dutch and would have been the Nazis Norsk Hydro sabotage.
 

Deleted member 1487

This would have been a far more intelligent choice for Operation Pastorius especially if they used pro-Nazi Dutch and would have been the Nazis Norsk Hydro sabotage.
I suppose the question, assuming blowing up the explosive laden merchant ship in Aruba's harbor isn't the POD, is whether a disguised transport ship could be moved into the Caribbean without being caught and unloading sufficient personnel to handle shore defenses and sabotage the facilities. For one thing though commandos used would have to be written off as likely PoWs much like the St. Nazaire raid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Nazaire_Raid
Either that or a stripped down Type VII Uboat used as a transport for commandos, probably a combo of Kriegsmarine Marines and Brandenburger Commandos, to conduct the raids on Aruba and Curacao.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-180
The issue is that the transport Uboats weren't around until after February 1942. They'd probably also need to have a Auxiliary Cruiser help provide shore bombardment as a distraction and supplementary damage.

I suppose if they prepared early enough they could strip down a standard Type VII and use it as a long range transport to get the men to the area. Strip out the deck guns and torpedoes and add in extra bunks and supplies for the commandos. It would probably take a couple of weeks to get to the Caribbean though:
http://uboat.net/types/viif.htm
 
If we do suppose the U-Boat bags the ship full of TNT as it exits the harbour, and we suppose the entire thing goes up at once, a 3KT blast yields the following (using Nukemap as a first order guess, dynamics of a conventional explosion might be slightly different)...View attachment 310437

The green circle is radiation, which given we're actually dealing with a conventional explosion is irrelevant.

On problem with using that as a calculator, the blasts are rated as roughly 'as TNT' but the detonation Velocity makes it different for overpressure effects, and no Counter pressure wave as the air get sucked back in to the detonation area
 
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