Article 80 is never put in the Treaty of Versailles

Article 80 of the Treaty of Versailles states "Germany acknowledges and will respect strictly the independence of Austria, within the frontiers which may be fixed in a Treaty between that State and the Principal Allied and Associated Powers; she agrees that this independence shall be inalienable, except with the consent of the Council of the League of Nations."

Without article 80 the new Wiemar Republic could Anschluss Austria in say 1922. How does this effect the rise of Hitler and the World as a Whole.
 
This would probably freak the Little Entente and Poland out, as it shows Germany taking steps to unite all ethnic Germans under its rule. All those living in Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, and Romania will come under suspicion as agents of a resurgent Germany.

Fascist Italy would also be concerned, for that matter. Maybe enough to align with the Little Entente in an anti-German coalition.
 
Yes, Italy and Czechoslovakia, at a minimum, would threaten intervention. France and Poland may join in just because. If the Germans don't back down, I'm pretty sure they'd have to fight somebody and all but certainly lose.
 
This would probably freak the Little Entente and Poland out, as it shows Germany taking steps to unite all ethnic Germans under its rule. All those living in Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, and Romania will come under suspicion as agents of a resurgent Germany.

Fascist Italy would also be concerned, for that matter. Maybe enough to align with the Little Entente in an anti-German coalition.

So lets say a Anti-German coalition does form with Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and, France as all members. The little entente intervenes in some form. what happens next?
 
So lets say a Anti-German coalition does form with Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania and, France as all members. The little entente intervenes in some form. what happens next?

That's a ridiculously unbalanced fight, so the Germans withdraw from Austria posthaste, and don't try unification again for 20 years or more.
 
That's a ridiculously unbalanced fight, so the Germans withdraw from Austria posthaste, and don't try unification again for 20 years or more.

What if France does not join the Little entente, but Poland does. Would Germany stay in Austria?
Also it kind of makes sense if that if any major power like France, Threatens to intervene. Germany will withdraw from Austria.
 
What if France does not join the Little entente, but Poland does. Would Germany stay in Austria?

No. I think even the Belgian army outnumbered the Germans 3 to 1 in the 1920's. There's some complicated politics at work with the Soviets and their influence in Czechoslovakia, but I don't think they could buy Czech or Romanian neutrality in this issue. If even one of Germany's neighbors puts its foot down, the Germans have to give up. That's the Versailles state of affairs.
 
No. I think even the Belgian army outnumbered the Germans 3 to 1 in the 1920's. There's some complicated politics at work with the Soviets and their influence in Czechoslovakia, but I don't think they could buy Czech or Romanian neutrality in this issue. If even one of Germany's neighbors puts its foot down, the Germans have to give up. That's the Versailles state of affairs.

So no matter what Germany ends up leaving Austria in almost all cases.
That is kind of disappointing.
 
So no matter what Germany ends up leaving Austria in almost all cases.
That is kind of disappointing.

Well, yes. There were major, major changes in circumstances between 1922 and 1938. To just list a few off the top of my head:

1. Rearmament, of course. Germany no longer had to be worried about conquest by friggin' Belgium if they stepped out of line. If Italy or Czechoslovakia decided to fight them over Austria, they'd have a decent chance of holding it.

2. The 1923 Ruhr occupation convinced France and especially Belgium that proactive vigilance wasn't a workable stance, and that they couldn't expect international support in pursuing it against Germany.

3. Italy had been split apart from Britain/France diplomatically by the Ethiopian war, so they were less inclined to block Germany to keep the West happy.

4. In 1934, Germany and Poland signed a non-aggression pact. Hitler was unusual among German politicians for his willingness to table the Danzig issue while he dealt with other concerns, co-opting the Poles for his own ends when he went to threaten the Czechs in 1938. Before that, there was too much bad blood between Poles and Germans over the Corridor and other land disputes.

5. The Little Entente started falling apart in the mid-30's, so basically none of Hitler's enemies were ready to present a unified front.

6. The re-militarization of the Rhineland in 1936 meant that even if France acted, they wouldn't have quite so easy a time of it.

I don't really consider myself an expert on these matters, so others could give you more details about all of this stuff, but the bottom line is that there was a lot of prior groundwork for the Anschluss to happen. Maybe 1918-1919 would pose a better chance, with everything so chaotic and fluid, but I'm skeptical of that, too.
 
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Don't forget the years it took to destroy the anti-Anschluss elements of Austrian society. The Hapsburg restorationists and Communists would probably both object to union with Weimar.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Sry to disturb this "crush the germans" party, but ... you're all a bit too late.

German Austria voted for being part of the "German Republik" already on 9.November 1918, becomming law by the provisional National Assambly of German Austria on 12.November 1918.
On 2.March 1919 the german and the austrian foreign ministers signed an "Anschluß"-Protokoll, that would have made German-Austria an additional state of the German Republik (like Bavaria, Prussia, Schaumburg-Lippe, etc.).

Without the in the OP mentioned Article 80 and the Paris Conference following more the principle of national self-determination you could/would see the unification of Germany and German Austria in late summer/autumn 1919.
At this time Poland started to get some ... other problems on its eastern borders it had to care about, the "Little Entente" didn't exist at this moment, there is no fascist Italy, France is deeply war-tired, Yugoslavia and Romania arer also not able to field, not to speak of maintain considerable armed forces.

And don't forget : at that moment there are still hundreds of thousands of german soldiers under weapons, in Germany not demobilesed yet, in the Baltikum on behalf of the Entente to check the Bolshevics.
 
Sry to disturb this "crush the germans" party, but ... you're all a bit too late.

German Austria voted for being part of the "German Republik" already on 9.November 1918, becomming law by the provisional National Assambly of German Austria on 12.November 1918.
On 2.March 1919 the german and the austrian foreign ministers signed an "Anschluß"-Protokoll, that would have made German-Austria an additional state of the German Republik (like Bavaria, Prussia, Schaumburg-Lippe, etc.).

Without the in the OP mentioned Article 80 and the Paris Conference following more the principle of national self-determination you could/would see the unification of Germany and German Austria in late summer/autumn 1919.
At this time Poland started to get some ... other problems on its eastern borders it had to care about, the "Little Entente" didn't exist at this moment, there is no fascist Italy, France is deeply war-tired, Yugoslavia and Romania arer also not able to field, not to speak of maintain considerable armed forces.

And don't forget : at that moment there are still hundreds of thousands of german soldiers under weapons, in Germany not demobilesed yet, in the Baltikum on behalf of the Entente to check the Bolshevics.

So as I suspected, the best chance was immediately post war. I'm still unsure why the Entente would be okay with this, though. They could probably make lifting the blockade contingent on Austrian independence.
 
Yeah, the last thing the Entente wants is German territorial expansion. I presume they knew about the Austrian vote, which is probably why they forbade it in Versailles. So to get this sort of early Anschluss you'd either have to have the Entente being okay with it (implausible!) or to prevent the Austrian vote altogether.
 
Sorry but, if there's no treaty blocking it and Austria decides to join Germany like it did 1919, what's exactly the causus belli for France, the Little Entente or whoever else to threaten war against Germany? Germany is being threatened by no valid reason at all. If that happens, I can see german society being much more radicalized.
 
Sorry but, if there's no treaty blocking it and Austria decides to join Germany like it did 1919, what's exactly the causus belli for France, the Little Entente or whoever else to threaten war against Germany? Germany is being threatened by no valid reason at all. If that happens, I can see german society being much more radicalized.

Czechoslovakia would call it a threat to their security as the Germans are moving to encircle them.
 
Czechoslovakia would call it a threat to their security as the Germans are moving to encircle them.

Threatened by 100,000 men armed with light weaponry? We still don't have a valid causus belli. Just look what happened in the Ruhr, when the french actually had one.
 
Threatened by 100,000 men armed with light weaponry? We still don't have a valid causus belli. Just look what happened in the Ruhr, when the french actually had one.

Nobody believed Germany was actually following the arms restrictions. And they weren't, France et al just overestimated the degree of cheating.

Plus, the goal is easier to define: Germans out of Austria, simple. Germans pay their goddamn reparations was more complicated.
 
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How Germany paying reparations, something actually defined in the treaty, is more complicated than Germany doing an action that in any way doesn't violate the treaty? It'll be extremely bizarre for France or any other country to jump on the german-austrian affair when the Entente, themselves, refrained from doing it in this alternate Versailles.
 
How Germany paying reparations, something actually defined in the treaty, is more complicated than Germany doing an action that in any way doesn't violate the treaty? It'll be extremely bizarre for France or any other country to jump on the german-austrian affair when the Entente, themselves, refrained from doing it in this alternate Versailles.

What I meant was that compliance was more difficult. And under Poincare, the French wouldn't need much excuse.
 
Sorry but, if there's no treaty blocking it and Austria decides to join Germany like it did 1919, what's exactly the causus belli for France, the Little Entente or whoever else to threaten war against Germany? Germany is being threatened by no valid reason at all. If that happens, I can see german society being much more radicalized.
The casus belli is that they don't want Germany to be stronger. They don't need any other reason. Remember that they've just finished fighting a brutal war with them and they hate their guts. Nobody in the 1920's is really all that bothered about having airtight reasons to go to war.
 
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