Arthur of Brittany TL questions

I'm thinking of starting a new (possibly short) ATL in a week or so on Arthur Plantagenet of Brittany. The POD being Richard avoiding/surviving his crossbow bolt wound at Chalus Castle.

But first there were a few ideas/questions I'd like to discuss and get out of the way first.

1. In previous threads people have discussed who Arthur would marry. I've thought about it, and my choice is going to be Sancha, younger sister of Peter II of Aragon. She was about a year older than Arthur, and IOTL married Raymond VII of Tolouse, who was at least ten years younger than her. Thoughts?

2. From what I've read, Arthur was being held hostage at Philip Augustus' court at the time of Richard's death. How badly would Richard need to beat Philip in order to get him back?

3. Assuming Philip's authority isn't completely undermined or destroyed, and there's no real equivalent to the Treaty of Le Goulet, who, besides Blanche of Castile, could be a potential bride for Louis VIII?

4. Speaking of marriages, continuing the alliances between England and the Spanish kingdoms, I'm considering marrying Eleanor or Matilda, Arthur's older sisters, to Prince Alfonso of Portugal, OTL Alfonso II 'the Fat'. Thoughts?

5. John. How soon would he make his move? Could he have remarried or had children with his first wife before then?

6. Based on what I've read about Richard, the thing he seemed to care about most was war. Once he's finished with Normandy, where would he go next? Northern Ireland? Wales? Scotland? The Fourth Crusade?

I'd really appreciate any and all opinions and ideas you guys could give me.
 
Assuming Philip's authority isn't comBased on what I've read about Richard, the thing he seemed to care about most was war. Once he's finished with Normandy, where would he go next? Northern Ireland? Wales? Scotland? The Fourth Crusade?

He would try and conquer Wales next, then Ireland, and then Scotland. creating a "British Empire" of some sort in the 1200s.
 
He would try and conquer Wales next, then Ireland, and then Scotland. creating a "British Empire" of some sort in the 1200s.

What sort of motivation would there be for these? William 'the Lion' of Scotland trying to seize Northumbria after failing to buy it in 1194? John either rebelling against his brother or getting thrown out of Ireland?
 
Nobody at all?

I'm not planning to make Richard, Arthur and their successors perfect. I'd just like some advice on the questions I've put forward.
 
First, you know yourself, it's not so much the age, it's the allegiances. Politics and money are much less negociable than sex and marriage; Richard may have had his eye on the far distance but presumably there was someone sensible involved, so- an Aragonese alliance? Why would that be a good move for a young man at this time?

Is the object to encircle France (or the lands futurically known as...) here, leave John in charge in England and have Arthur in Aragon?


It's not how badly Richard would need to beat Phillip, it's how much he'd have to pay. The entire point of hostages is as a defence against such a thing- attacking stands a good chance of having the lad killed.

Louis, there are so many louisii, they all blur together- no idea.

John the Dubious- no idea. Unlikely to have a legitimate heir under the circumstances.

Could Richard go back to the crusades? Didn't the agreement he made with Saladin bar him from returning to the holy land? If so, and I think it was so, there were alternatives. Richard I of England, Master of the Teutonic Order, what a thought.
 
First, you know yourself, it's not so much the age, it's the allegiances. Politics and money are much less negociable than sex and marriage; Richard may have had his eye on the far distance but presumably there was someone sensible involved, so- an Aragonese alliance? Why would that be a good move for a young man at this time?

Is the object to encircle France (or the lands futurically known as...) here, leave John in charge in England and have Arthur in Aragon?


It's not how badly Richard would need to beat Phillip, it's how much he'd have to pay. The entire point of hostages is as a defence against such a thing- attacking stands a good chance of having the lad killed.

Louis, there are so many louisii, they all blur together- no idea.

John the Dubious- no idea. Unlikely to have a legitimate heir under the circumstances.

Could Richard go back to the crusades? Didn't the agreement he made with Saladin bar him from returning to the holy land? If so, and I think it was so, there were alternatives. Richard I of England, Master of the Teutonic Order, what a thought.

It would be to encircle Philip and his vassals. Richard was already allied to Castille, Toulouse and Navarre via his sisters and wife. Aragon also controlled the County of Provence. As for Arthur, he would hardly stay in Aragon.

I'm thinking about a marriage between Louis VIII and one of Philip of Swabia's daughters.

As for Philip keeping Arthur at his court, up to Chalus, Richard was winning. A few more victories and Philip might decide Arthur and his mother are more trouble than they're worth.

Saladin was long dead at this point, his sons and brothers squabbling over their inheritance. However, on the previous crusade, Richard and Philip only agreed to go on crusade if the other did. That, to me, is the biggest issue preventing Richard from going on crusade again.
 

Marc

Donor
Are you going for fanciful, or realistic?

If the former, if you want an Anglo-French empire arising, I would think that there has to a be solid marriage between Arthur and the right English family (the woman in question would be sadly irrelevant, what would matter is her bloodlines), otherwise the Angevin state isn't going to last long. After that, it's just have fun.

(A great science-fantasy series keyed off the idea of Richard living and Arthur becoming his heir is Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy collection of short stories - very highly recommended).

If the latter, it is very touch and go for the Plantagenets not to get wrecked by the Capets - Sorry but going by history and what we know of the intelligence and character of the principals at the time, it's a very uneven contest of political skills.
 
Are you going for fanciful, or realistic?

If the former, if you want an Anglo-French empire arising, I would think that there has to a be solid marriage between Arthur and the right English family (the woman in question would be sadly irrelevant, what would matter is her bloodlines), otherwise the Angevin state isn't going to last long. After that, it's just have fun.

(A great science-fantasy series keyed off the idea of Richard living and Arthur becoming his heir is Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy collection of short stories - very highly recommended).

If the latter, it is very touch and go for the Plantagenets not to get wrecked by the Capets - Sorry but going by history and what we know of the intelligence and character of the principals at the time, it's a very uneven contest of political skills.

I was thinking of a balance between fanciful and realistic - mainly Richard living long enough to either exhaust Philip's resources or pass the throne onto an Arthur who is of age.

I'm now thinking of a different POD. At the Battle of Gisors on September 27th 1198, Philip nearly drowned after the retreating French army broke the bridge to Gisors with its weight. The new POD could be that Philip does drown. Thoughts? Would Richard try to go for Paris?
 
I was thinking of a balance between fanciful and realistic - mainly Richard living long enough to either exhaust Philip's resources or pass the throne onto an Arthur who is of age.

I'm now thinking of a different POD. At the Battle of Gisors on September 27th 1198, Philip nearly drowned after the retreating French army broke the bridge to Gisors with its weight. The new POD could be that Philip does drown. Thoughts? Would Richard try to go for Paris?

Hi!

Short answer: no.
Long one: Richard was struggling for consolidate his lands and quelling the rebellious barons who side with the French every time he was not present. He kill his main enemy but he was not on conquest. Also, Philip has already an heir - Louis (yes, very young but still). At best, Richard will strip some lands from Louis, consolidate his suzerainty on counties of Flanders and Boulogne and eventually Toulouse (he had claims via his mother). He could even try to become something like tutor or guardian of he young king, but I believe that it's unlikely.

In any case, it will be a huge mess in the French kingdom...
 
Perhaps you could have Richard sire a son who later dies in adolescence.
This means Philippe might raise Arthur up in opposition on some of Richard's French domains.
Then Richard's heir pops it with Richard following soon after.
Philippe's plan has now backfired with a strong Arthur acclaimed as King of England, Duke of Normandy, Duke of Aquitaine, Count of Anjou-Maine-Touraine, etc
Let's have John also drop off - he would have been Philippe's backup plan - but possibly with a young son as King of Ireland.
 
Hi!

Short answer: no.
Long one: Richard was struggling for consolidate his lands and quelling the rebellious barons who side with the French every time he was not present. He kill his main enemy but he was not on conquest. Also, Philip has already an heir - Louis (yes, very young but still). At best, Richard will strip some lands from Louis, consolidate his suzerainty on counties of Flanders and Boulogne and eventually Toulouse (he had claims via his mother). He could even try to become something like tutor or guardian of he young king, but I believe that it's unlikely.

In any case, it will be a huge mess in the French kingdom...

Okay. So I was thinking about the terms of a potential peace if Philip dies at Gisors:

* The release of Arthur of Brittany into Richard's care.
* The marriage of Louis VIII and Eleanor of Brittany.
* Cessasion of all Angevin territory captured by Philip and the Vexin.

But before I jumped to any conclusions, I just wondered how much of these demands Richard would be able to impose upon the French court.

As for Richard's suzerainity over Flanders, Boulogne and Toulouse, would that be more "they become de-facto independent of France but pay lip service to the Angevins" or more "become direct vassals of the Angevin kingdom"?
 
Speaking of France, would vassals like Burgundy and Flanders try to break away in the event of Philip's death? If so, could they remain independent for long?

Finally, Louis VIII is about 11 years old. I count about two other claimants to the French throne, both cousins of Philip II - Robert, 2nd Count of Dreux, and Peter, 2nd Count of Courtenay and OTL Latin Emperor of Constantinople, married to Baldwin of Flanders' sister.
 
Final bump to first page.

Anyone else want to discuss anything or give advice? If not, then I'll just leave this thread and begin the TL when I get back home from Austria.
 
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