Army equipment that shouldn't have seen service

Deleted member 1487

This will be controversial but I'm going to nominate the No 4 Mk 1 Lee Enfield rifle and it's derivatives. Why? The improvements over the S.M.L.E. were not worth the time, effort and money spent developing a new rifle. If the British were going to spend scarce resources developing a new rifle in the 20's and 30's those resources should have been spent developing a self loading rifle not reworking a design dating back to the 1870's.
Cheaper than adopting a new rifle in the new caliber they wanted. Of course dependent on US decisions. So when the US abandoned .276 Pedersen cartridge/rifle and wasn't about the license the Garand Britain was out of luck, because they did develop the Pedersen as their choice semi-auto:
 
It's not as cheap as keeping producing a rifle that is already good enough. Sure the No 4 was a bit easier to produce than the No 1 Mk 3* but the design sat on the shelf for nearly 10 years after it was finalised and I don't think the easier production justified the expense of developing it.
 
The 80cm Gustav railway gun should never have even been conceived.
The fact that it was built leads me to one word: WHYYYYY?!?!?!?
 

Deleted member 1487

The 80cm Gustav railway gun should never have even been conceived.
The fact that it was built leads me to one word: WHYYYYY?!?!?!?
Maginot Line. France though fell before it could be used, so they had to find some sort of use for it. At that time bombers could not accurately place the heaviest of AP bombs that were available on something as small and hard to spot from the air as an underground fortress, especially from the necessary altitudes to penetrate to the necessary depths to deal with the reinforced concrete/steel under meters of soil. Not only that, but Germany NEVER developed an aerial bomb of the weight of the AP Gustav gun, which was a more than 7 ton shell. The only comparable aircraft bomb in WW2 was the Grand Slam of 1945 and of course only an Allied weapon.
 
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The 80cm Gustav railway gun should never have even been conceived.
The fact that it was built leads me to one word: WHYYYYY?!?!?!?


Megalomaniac in charge of country thinks "If big guns are good, then bigger guns are better and the biggest gun is best".
Generals think "If I tell him he's an idiot he'll have me and my family shot".
 
Maginot Line. France though fell before it could be used, so they had to find some sort of use for it. At that time bombers could not accurately place the heaviest of AP bombs that were available on something as small and hard to spot from the air as an underground fortress, especially from the necessary altitudes to penetrate to the necessary depths to pierce the ground far enough to deal with the reinforced concrete/steel. Not only that, but Germany NEVER developed an aerial bomb of the weight of the AP Gustav gun, which was a more than 7 ton shell. The only comparable aircraft bomb in WW2 was the Grand Slam of 1945 and of course only an Allied weapon.
Naw, attack at night and smoke the Frenchies out.
Whole ouvrage garrison suffocated in 1940 from CO inhalation.

Or Germans could recon during the day by air and then attack at night using the same shape charges at Eben Emael against the turrets.
You can't shoot what you can't see. Visibility was pretty bad based on images of the fortifications. At night it would have been impossible.

Or use rocket bombs.
don't need the weight when you have a rocket to help you
 

Deleted member 1487

Naw, attack at night and smoke the Frenchies out.
Whole ouvrage garrison suffocated in 1940 from CO inhalation.
They couldn't plan on that working, it was a fluke and there isn't a reason to believe it would have worked otherwise. Plus didn't Germany lose nearly an entire battalion in that assault? A specially trained assault unit to boot?

Or Germans could recon during the day by air and then attack at night using the same shape charges at Eben Emael against the turrets.
You can't shoot what you can't see. Visibility was pretty bad based on images of the fortifications. At night it would have been impossible.
Again, hard to see from the air, it's not like the French didn't plan on being bombed and shelled by super heavy weapons.
Eben Emael was a special situation too and wasn't part of the Maginot Line.

Or use rocket bombs.
don't need the weight when you have a rocket to help you
Those were several tons lighter than the Gustav shell. It isn't simply an issue of velocity, you also need weight and explosive filling.
Plus as the link says it was meant for attacking ships, not underground fortresses!
 
They couldn't plan on that working, it was a fluke and there isn't a reason to believe it would have worked otherwise. Plus didn't Germany lose nearly an entire battalion in that assault? A specially trained assault unit to boot?


Again, hard to see from the air, it's not like the French didn't plan on being bombed and shelled by super heavy weapons.
Eben Emael was a special situation too and wasn't part of the Maginot Line.


Those were several tons lighter than the Gustav shell. It isn't simply an issue of velocity, you also need weight and explosive filling.
Plus as the link says it was meant for attacking ships, not underground fortresses!
An regular 500 kg AP bomb with no rocket could pierce 15cm of armor.
The Germans had 1800kg rocket bombs.
Chuck rocket bombs at the tops of the retractable turrets and in it goes.
Then kaboom, turret is destroyed.

Use Fi 156 recon planes to scout the place out up close.
I don't think the Maginot had significant flak defenses.
 

Deleted member 1487

An regular 500 kg AP bomb with no rocket could pierce 15cm of armor.
The Germans had 1800kg rocket bombs.
Chuck rocket bombs at the tops of the retractable turrets and in it goes.
Then kaboom, turret is destroyed.
They'd have to penetrate several feed of ground and then the concrete and steel. The French learned from facing German rail artillery around Verdun in WW1.

Use Fi 156 recon planes to scout the place out up close.
I don't think the Maginot had significant flak defenses.
Kind of hard to pick out a buried fortification. They did have MG defenses, which would screw low level flying light aircraft.
Didn't find much about AAA around the Maginot line, but it would be quite the oversight not to have some.
 
This will be controversial but I'm going to nominate the No 4 Mk 1 Lee Enfield rifle and it's derivatives. Why? The improvements over the S.M.L.E. were not worth the time, effort and money spent developing a new rifle. If the British were going to spend scarce resources developing a new rifle in the 20's and 30's those resources should have been spent developing a self loading rifle not reworking a design dating back to the 1870's.

Unless there is a working reliable SLR ready for development/mass production then then sorry but no there was nothing ready or good enough when the decision has to be made.

The purpose of the No4 was not to provide a better rifle per se but to provide one that was better suited for then modern mass production techniques

The Garand for example was not properly ready for mass production until the war had started and even with the exceptionally good US production rates it was not being produced in nearly enough quantities until 1943 and other SLRs of the war were not as good.

That all being said I have always considered the early Dieudonne Saive SLRs such as the weapons that became the FN40 that eventually became the FN49 as a possible SLR that the British could leverage in the late 30s in order to produce an 'No4' SLR ready for production before WW2.

Obviously this would require the purse strings being lossened earlier and a great deal of investment in the late 30s.

Couple this with a switch to 7.98mm (which would include the BREN/ZB30 and adopting the ZB53 MMG as a infantry weapon as well as an AFV weapon) and we might see improved development of the BREN as there would be less development in switching it to 303.

Of course the risk is that the British are caught changing horses at the start of the war and it would leave the commonwealth nations still using 303 SMLEs and pose the issue of mixed calibres - that being said small arms represented a very small slice of a given units daily logistics and I don't think it would have been as big an issue as some people seem to fear.

I wrote a little story on this a few year back
 
They'd have to penetrate several feed of ground and then the concrete and steel. The French learned from facing German rail artillery around Verdun in WW1.


Kind of hard to pick out a buried fortification. They did have MG defenses, which would screw low level flying light aircraft.
Didn't find much about AAA around the Maginot line, but it would be quite the oversight not to have some.
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No, I mean use rocket AP bombs to destroy these turrets.
 
Unless there is a working reliable SLR ready for development/mass production then then sorry but no there was nothing ready or good enough when the decision has to be made.

The purpose of the No4 was not to provide a better rifle per se but to provide one that was better suited for then modern mass production techniques

The Garand for example was not properly ready for mass production until the war had started and even with the exceptionally good US production rates it was not being produced in nearly enough quantities until 1943 and other SLRs of the war were not as good.

That all being said I have always considered the early Dieudonne Saive SLRs such as the weapons that became the FN40 that eventually became the FN49 as a possible SLR that the British could leverage in the late 30s in order to produce an 'No4' SLR ready for production before WW2.

Obviously this would require the purse strings being lossened earlier and a great deal of investment in the late 30s.

Couple this with a switch to 7.98mm (which would include the BREN/ZB30 and adopting the ZB53 MMG as a infantry weapon as well as an AFV weapon) and we might see improved development of the BREN as there would be less development in switching it to 303.

Of course the risk is that the British are caught changing horses at the start of the war and it would leave the commonwealth nations still using 303 SMLEs and pose the issue of mixed calibres - that being said small arms represented a very small slice of a given units daily logistics and I don't think it would have been as big an issue as some people seem to fear.

I wrote a little story on this a few year back
7.92x57mm not 7.98
And didn't the UK adopt the BESA as a vehicle MG OTL?
 
Rochling Artillery Shell made of Vanadium-steel were developed in 1941 and were capable of penetrating some 13 feet of reinforce concrete and quite a few feet of earth. They were tested in 1943. They were tested against various forificatoins in Belgium, Czechoslovakia and Russia. Fired from various railway guns they were however rather inaccurate.
 
This will be controversial but I'm going to nominate the No 4 Mk 1 Lee Enfield rifle and it's derivatives. Why? The improvements over the S.M.L.E. were not worth the time, effort and money spent developing a new rifle. If the British were going to spend scarce resources developing a new rifle in the 20's and 30's those resources should have been spent developing a self loading rifle not reworking a design dating back to the 1870's.
Perhaps this is more of a matter for what Army equipment should have seen service? It was not that the No4 was poor. As a bolt action rifle it was fine and certainly easier to make than the SMLE (although the production engineering could have been taken further) but rather that the Board might have actively pursued one of the tested designs.

However, the concept was allied to taking a decision to replace .303" ammunition to form a suite of common ammunition small arms. 7.92 Mauser being the obvious choice in the context of the time. Allowing for reasonable time to do all of this, promulgate it across the Empire and then manufacture the result, would have left the forces in an Italian situation of being part way through a total ammunition switch. Had it happened thus it would be a matter of segregating issue to major groups of troops with specific ammunition supplies. BEF with 7.92 and home and colonial with .303 and gradually changing over by major units. If one looks at the French decision, they balanced bolt action and semi auto across their forces by user needs, at least by intention. Thus the SMLE/No4 could continue in production and service to make use of existing plant whilst the chosen semi automatic was built in a new rearmament plan factory on a different site. To be fair to the Board, they were tasked with reporting on the suitability of arms presented for trials and not the introduction to service and all the high level allied decisions. They were not short of choices. The ZH29/ZH32 were already in production form, in any rimless ammunition but made in 7.92 Mauser and could use ZB26 magazines as well as their own smaller capacity ones which would be handy if Britain just made the ZB26 and not faff about converting it to .303 as IOTL. The Vickers was easily capable of being both made and refurbished to 7.92 Mauser too not to mention replacing it with a ZB53 aka BESA.
 
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7.92x57mm not 7.98
And didn't the UK adopt the BESA as a vehicle MG OTL?

Correct

Yes they did adopt the ZB53 and all they did was change the name to BESA

During the 30s there was plans on adopting the '7.92' which was the original calibre of the ZB26 the gun that the BREN was developed from

Perhaps a better answer would be to adopt the 7.92, make the No4 in that calibre and then adopt an SLR as it matures as a design?
 
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Wednesday at 2:28 PM



Peg Leg Pom







Instead of any production of Lee Enfield Rifles after 1944. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SLEM-1. The Besa can be adapted to Infantry use as a GPMG and the Bren back to its original calibre with ease. This would mean the British Army's firepower would be greatly increased in time for Malaya and Korea. I have seen film of British forces still using the No 4. well into the 60's which is unacceptable.

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Correct

Yes they did adopt the ZB53 and all they did was change the name to BESA

During the 30s there was plans on adopting the '7.92' which was the original calibre of the ZB26 the gun that the BREN was developed from

Perhaps a better answer would be to adopt the 7.92, make the No4 in that calibre and then adopt an SLR as it matures as a design?
Why did they decide to replace the .303?
AFAIK there were no serious problems with it.
 
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