I'm no tank expert, but they do sound plausible to me. They seem generally to heed to the specifications of modern tanks which were (after all) mostly designed in the '80s. Looking forward to your '70s posts!
Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the Cold War
- Thread starter Landshark
- Start date
I'm no tank expert, but they do sound plausible to me. They seem generally to heed to the specifications of modern tanks which were (after all) mostly designed in the '80s. Looking forward to your '70s posts!
OTL the Brazilians did develop an MBT in the 80s, the Osório, though it never made it into production.
They sound very plausible to me especially the reliability problems. I was in the Royal Tank Regiment and crewed Chieftan tanks as a loader and keeping a tank in fighting trim is a constant battle requiring daily maintenance. Even modern tanks need constant tinkering to keep them moving and shooting.
Keep up the good work
Landshark if you'd like to see some profiles of your tanks and other AFVs let me know. If you'd like to see some of my work head over here, My DeviantArt Page
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Romania
R-89
Of all the Axis countries Romania was perhaps the least willing member and the most likely to go it’s own way in the face of German pressure. Enjoying excellent relations with both the Western Nations and Russia most Romanians regarded fellow Axis member Hungary as their major enemy. Ever since the loss of Northern Transylvania in 1940 Romanian/Hungarian relations had generally alternated between frigidly cold and blazingly hot with little else in-between. During the 1970’s and 1980’s this state of affairs was particularly aggravated with the two countries engaging in their own mini cold war and arms race, with hostilities only being prevented by the threat of German action.
Like most of the junior Axis members Romania entered the 1960’s with a tank park largely consisting of Panzer VII’s dating from the late 1940’s. By 1960 however the 88 mm gun mounted on these tanks was past it’s prime having being surpassed by the 105 mm and 107 mm guns of Western and Soviet tanks. To counter this the Heer had introduced a new 115 mm gun on the Panzer IX which entered service in 1957, however this tank was not yet available for export. Both Hungary and Romania began looking for ways to update their armoured capabilities. In 1961 the Hungarians began modernising their Pz VII’s by replacing the 88 with an Italian 105 mm gun, this was only regarded as a stopgap though and work on a new locally designed tank was put into high gear, this resulted in the M-64 which entered service in 1966. Romanian attempts to up gun their Pz VII’s with a Slovak built 105 mm gun came to nought, as did an ambitious program to design a new indigenous tank from scratch while an attempt to licence the Henschel Rächer private venture tank was blocked by the German government. Eventually the Romanians managed to negotiate a licence to produce a modified version of the Pz IX. This tank entered service in 1968 and was essentially a Panzer IX hull fitted and 115 mm gun mated to a Dacia engine and a with a Romanian designed welded turret replacing the cast turret of the German original.
The unfavourable terms of the licence agreement, combined with the travails of the tank improvement programs lead the Romanians to decide to set up their own tank production industry in earnest, thereby removing their dependence on foreign suppliers. This resolve was hardened when the Germans granted a Pz IX production licence to Hungary in 1969 with the first tanks entering service as the M-70 in 1971.
The tank that eventually emerged as the R-89 had a long and convoluted development and despite appearing to be a totally new design the R-89 has a clear evolutionary descent from the original Romanian efforts started in the early 70’s.
Initial efforts were focused on a design called the TAROM 80, this was an ambitious design and was to consist of a lengthened and widened Pz IX hull fitted with an extra road wheel, a new 1000 hp Dacia multifuel engine and a brand new welded turret mounting a 115 mm gun fitted with an autoloader. This last piece of equipment proved to be the most troublesome component, though not the only source of problems. After spending a considerable amount of time and money on it the first design of autoloader had to be scraped as totally unworkable and a second design was begun from a clean sheet. While this design did eventually work it was still far from satisfactory, having a lower rate of fire than a manual loading system and being overly complex to maintain. Also increase in tank weights and armament during the 70’s cast doubt on the use of the 115 mm gun. To replace the gun would have been a relatively simple matter but to build a new autoloader and design new ammunition for it was not. This combined with problems with the suspension, engine and some other parts of the tank eventually killed the TAROM concept and cast doubts on the whole Romanian tank program.
What probably saved the enterprise was the introduction of the M-70B into Hungarian service. This was basically a modernised Pz IX with a new engine, an appliqué armour package and the 120 mm gun from the Panzer XI. This spurred Romanian tank development anew and helped focus minds on what the Romanian Army needed in it’s future tank.
While the TAROM program never produced a battle ready tank it did teach the Romanians a great deal about the does and don’ts of tank design. In attempting to solve the TAROM’s problems the various design elements had come up with some ingenious solutions that would serve them well over the next few years.
For instance Dacia’s problems with getting the multifuel engine to put out the required 1000 hp were never successfully resolved, however their efforts to solve the problem resulted in the design of a particularly compact and reliable 1100 hp diesel engine. Likewise the trouble generated by the hybrid torsion bar/hydro gas suspension lead the company to look at solutions from other nations resulting in the fitting of an adaptation of a Spanish hydro pneumatic design.
Experience gained in the design of the complex autoloader mounting turret made the design of a simpler turret for a conventional crew of commander, gunner and loader easy and resulted in a well laid out fighting compartment. The stretched and widened Pz IX hull proved an excellent basis for a modified design fitted with spaced armour and wider tracks to increase mobility.
The only remaining problems were fire power and fire control. The former was solved by fitting a Brazilian smoothbore gun and the latter by using an unlicensed version of a German system. This was replaced in the early 90’s with a French system designed as an upgrade for older tanks.
The R-89 described
The R-89 is a conventional tank weighing 51 tonnes and powered by a Dacia 1100 hp diesel engine linked to a six speed automatic transmission also made by Malaxa. Suspension is a hydro pneumatic type produced by Dacia and based off the Spanish Hispano-Suiza system. Armour is a Romanian designed spaced system.
The main armament is a 120 mm 44 calibre smoothbore gun supplied the Brazilian company Avibras. A 7.92 mm machine gun is mounted coaxially with a weapon of similar calibre on the commander’s cupola. A 13 mm heavy machine gun is provided for the gunner for use in the air defence role. The original fire control and sighting system is an unlicensed Romanian version of the German system used to upgrade the Panzer XI in the late 70’s.
R-89
Of all the Axis countries Romania was perhaps the least willing member and the most likely to go it’s own way in the face of German pressure. Enjoying excellent relations with both the Western Nations and Russia most Romanians regarded fellow Axis member Hungary as their major enemy. Ever since the loss of Northern Transylvania in 1940 Romanian/Hungarian relations had generally alternated between frigidly cold and blazingly hot with little else in-between. During the 1970’s and 1980’s this state of affairs was particularly aggravated with the two countries engaging in their own mini cold war and arms race, with hostilities only being prevented by the threat of German action.
Like most of the junior Axis members Romania entered the 1960’s with a tank park largely consisting of Panzer VII’s dating from the late 1940’s. By 1960 however the 88 mm gun mounted on these tanks was past it’s prime having being surpassed by the 105 mm and 107 mm guns of Western and Soviet tanks. To counter this the Heer had introduced a new 115 mm gun on the Panzer IX which entered service in 1957, however this tank was not yet available for export. Both Hungary and Romania began looking for ways to update their armoured capabilities. In 1961 the Hungarians began modernising their Pz VII’s by replacing the 88 with an Italian 105 mm gun, this was only regarded as a stopgap though and work on a new locally designed tank was put into high gear, this resulted in the M-64 which entered service in 1966. Romanian attempts to up gun their Pz VII’s with a Slovak built 105 mm gun came to nought, as did an ambitious program to design a new indigenous tank from scratch while an attempt to licence the Henschel Rächer private venture tank was blocked by the German government. Eventually the Romanians managed to negotiate a licence to produce a modified version of the Pz IX. This tank entered service in 1968 and was essentially a Panzer IX hull fitted and 115 mm gun mated to a Dacia engine and a with a Romanian designed welded turret replacing the cast turret of the German original.
The unfavourable terms of the licence agreement, combined with the travails of the tank improvement programs lead the Romanians to decide to set up their own tank production industry in earnest, thereby removing their dependence on foreign suppliers. This resolve was hardened when the Germans granted a Pz IX production licence to Hungary in 1969 with the first tanks entering service as the M-70 in 1971.
The tank that eventually emerged as the R-89 had a long and convoluted development and despite appearing to be a totally new design the R-89 has a clear evolutionary descent from the original Romanian efforts started in the early 70’s.
Initial efforts were focused on a design called the TAROM 80, this was an ambitious design and was to consist of a lengthened and widened Pz IX hull fitted with an extra road wheel, a new 1000 hp Dacia multifuel engine and a brand new welded turret mounting a 115 mm gun fitted with an autoloader. This last piece of equipment proved to be the most troublesome component, though not the only source of problems. After spending a considerable amount of time and money on it the first design of autoloader had to be scraped as totally unworkable and a second design was begun from a clean sheet. While this design did eventually work it was still far from satisfactory, having a lower rate of fire than a manual loading system and being overly complex to maintain. Also increase in tank weights and armament during the 70’s cast doubt on the use of the 115 mm gun. To replace the gun would have been a relatively simple matter but to build a new autoloader and design new ammunition for it was not. This combined with problems with the suspension, engine and some other parts of the tank eventually killed the TAROM concept and cast doubts on the whole Romanian tank program.
What probably saved the enterprise was the introduction of the M-70B into Hungarian service. This was basically a modernised Pz IX with a new engine, an appliqué armour package and the 120 mm gun from the Panzer XI. This spurred Romanian tank development anew and helped focus minds on what the Romanian Army needed in it’s future tank.
While the TAROM program never produced a battle ready tank it did teach the Romanians a great deal about the does and don’ts of tank design. In attempting to solve the TAROM’s problems the various design elements had come up with some ingenious solutions that would serve them well over the next few years.
For instance Dacia’s problems with getting the multifuel engine to put out the required 1000 hp were never successfully resolved, however their efforts to solve the problem resulted in the design of a particularly compact and reliable 1100 hp diesel engine. Likewise the trouble generated by the hybrid torsion bar/hydro gas suspension lead the company to look at solutions from other nations resulting in the fitting of an adaptation of a Spanish hydro pneumatic design.
Experience gained in the design of the complex autoloader mounting turret made the design of a simpler turret for a conventional crew of commander, gunner and loader easy and resulted in a well laid out fighting compartment. The stretched and widened Pz IX hull proved an excellent basis for a modified design fitted with spaced armour and wider tracks to increase mobility.
The only remaining problems were fire power and fire control. The former was solved by fitting a Brazilian smoothbore gun and the latter by using an unlicensed version of a German system. This was replaced in the early 90’s with a French system designed as an upgrade for older tanks.
The R-89 described
The R-89 is a conventional tank weighing 51 tonnes and powered by a Dacia 1100 hp diesel engine linked to a six speed automatic transmission also made by Malaxa. Suspension is a hydro pneumatic type produced by Dacia and based off the Spanish Hispano-Suiza system. Armour is a Romanian designed spaced system.
The main armament is a 120 mm 44 calibre smoothbore gun supplied the Brazilian company Avibras. A 7.92 mm machine gun is mounted coaxially with a weapon of similar calibre on the commander’s cupola. A 13 mm heavy machine gun is provided for the gunner for use in the air defence role. The original fire control and sighting system is an unlicensed Romanian version of the German system used to upgrade the Panzer XI in the late 70’s.
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Does the R-89 use an autoloader or not? It wasn't perfectly clear from your description.
I'd be interested in seeing your ideas. One worry I've had when writing these descriptions is that the tanks will all look a bit too OTL-like. When I was doing the Conqueror I was having real trouble seeing it as appearing much different from a Challenger 2 because of it's erstaz Chobham armour.
PM me Landshark. Probably the best way to do this is to combine elements of different OTL vehicles. For example maybe your Conqueror has a blending of Centurion, Chieftain, and Challenger features. Just cause it has chobham armor doesn't mean it has to be built the same way. Give me an idea of what to research and I'll come up with a basic outline that you can give the thumbs up too.
As a suggestion for nations, look at the countries of today that have the industrial capability to manufacture MBTs: China, yes, Brazil, yes/limited, Argentina, not really TAM isn't an MBT.
New to the forum and don't know the whole TL (would love to read it)
Given that, think about adding Japan, France, USSR/Russia or whom ever is running that part of thw world. If you delve into lighter vehicles, a whole other round of countries pop up.
A couple of comments regarding your German-centric vehicle array:
1. A 48 ton ATGM vehicle (Jagpanther-2) is probably over-kill, particularily when you have a lighter one (Jageber) armed with the same missile.
2. The 3-man crew of the Fuchs-2 will limit its effectivness. Driver, gunner-loader, commander/gunner? A smaller caliber main gun for such a light/small recon vehicle might be better. The 30mm off a Eber would do the trick and simplfy your ammo re-supply.
3. Not sure if an 18ton chassis is capable of firing a HV 90mm. Medium yes, 75mm OK. The Gepard should also use as many of the same components as the Schakal to simplify repair parts issues.
4. For such a heavily armored force, you will also need: recovery vehicles, vehicle launched bridges and possibily a dedicated heavy engineer/breacher vehicle. Also, variants of the Schakal APC for Command & Control, casualty evac, SP mortars (120mm), etc.
5. With both an SP 150mm cannon (Braunbar)and an 140mm SP rocket system (Wirbelstrum), not sure another SP artillery system 200mm Eisbar (203mm = 8 inch) is necessary.
The number/type of vehilces will need to fit both the doctrine and the organization(s) of the force. Form really does follow function.
Looking forward to some follow-ups with the rest of the vehicles from the other "players", brits, swedes, USA etc.
Blair152
Banned
Very nice. You're assuming, of course, the M1 Abrams' prototype, the XM1,
isn't built.
As a suggestion for nations, look at the countries of today that have the industrial capability to manufacture MBTs: China, yes, Brazil, yes/limited, Argentina, not really TAM isn't an MBT.
New to the forum and don't know the whole TL (would love to read it)
Given that, think about adding Japan, France, USSR/Russia or whom ever is running that part of thw world. If you delve into lighter vehicles, a whole other round of countries pop up.
A couple of comments regarding your German-centric vehicle array:
1. A 48 ton ATGM vehicle (Jagpanther-2) is probably over-kill, particularily when you have a lighter one (Jageber) armed with the same missile.
2. The 3-man crew of the Fuchs-2 will limit its effectivness. Driver, gunner-loader, commander/gunner? A smaller caliber main gun for such a light/small recon vehicle might be better. The 30mm off a Eber would do the trick and simplfy your ammo re-supply.
3. Not sure if an 18ton chassis is capable of firing a HV 90mm. Medium yes, 75mm OK. The Gepard should also use as many of the same components as the Schakal to simplify repair parts issues.
4. For such a heavily armored force, you will also need: recovery vehicles, vehicle launched bridges and possibily a dedicated heavy engineer/breacher vehicle. Also, variants of the Schakal APC for Command & Control, casualty evac, SP mortars (120mm), etc.
5. With both an SP 150mm cannon (Braunbar)and an 140mm SP rocket system (Wirbelstrum), not sure another SP artillery system 200mm Eisbar (203mm = 8 inch) is necessary.
The number/type of vehilces will need to fit both the doctrine and the organization(s) of the force. Form really does follow function.
Looking forward to some follow-ups with the rest of the vehicles from the other "players", brits, swedes, USA etc.
Do not reply to posts in old threads (called "thread necromancy"). This is your last warning.