Armenia being a regional power?

Yes, but it was relative success. The OP requires Armenia as a regional power, hard to achieve under someone else's imperial umbrella.

But Armenia can be under a power for a while, then break out. But it somehow needs to avoid being vassalized again or conquered.
 
Could Armenia administer Mesopotamia on behalf of Rome if it is conquered? If Trajan lives a bit longer and Mesopotamia is somewhat subdued, but Hadrian still considers the borders too big for Rome why not give it to the friendly puppet regime on their borders rather than return it to Parthia. Just a thought.
 
Well, there's Medieval Armenia, which was somewhat successful before Basil II and the Seljuks came and put an end to that, though an Armenian kingdom still lingered in Cilicia for quite some time. However, it was rather shattered and not a regional power, from what I gather. The Bagratids were the most powerful of the Armenians at that time.

This is all IIRC and AFAIK, as it is not the area which I hold the most knowledge of.
 
Could Armenia administer Mesopotamia on behalf of Rome if it is conquered? If Trajan lives a bit longer and Mesopotamia is somewhat subdued, but Hadrian still considers the borders too big for Rome why not give it to the friendly puppet regime on their borders rather than return it to Parthia. Just a thought.

Hard to do. Combined lasting power of Armenia and Mesopotamia would be more than the Romans would be comfortable with. Too big to be a good buffer, too small not be defeated by either the Parthians or the Romans, with the Romans not willing to bother to actually control (not under Hadrian anyway). And obvious trend of expansion for someone who controls both Mesopotamia and Armenia is a Med outlet in Syria, that the Romans would be dead set against.
Not to mention that Armenia was reduced to province by Trajan as well.
The idea has some potential but sounds more likely to turn Middle East into an even bloodier battleground than it was IOTL.
 
But Armenia can be under a power for a while, then break out. But it somehow needs to avoid being vassalized again or conquered.

It was basically what happened in the Hellenistic era.
Bigger dogs appeared to put her down ultimately.
Now, if you can keep the Parthians at least east of the Zagros a century more...
But this requires a POD in the second century BC.

As a sidenote, Augustus explicitly said that he thought the place not worth conquering, too rebellious and not very valuable. The whole point of Roman policy in the areas, with the remarkable exception of Trajan, was in being sure that the rival power based in Iran could not control the area, without having to bother to rule it themselves.
 
For post-600s AD time periods, could an Armenia that converted to Islam still be considered Armenia? Iran managed to maintain a seperate cultural identity in spite of conversion: if the same happened in Armenia, an Islamic Armenia would be able to expand into neighboring territories without the problem of being a Christian state in a Muslim sea.

Bruce
 
Another possibility: can Armenia join up with Georgia? UK of Armenia-Georgia gives it some strategic depth in the Caucuses: the tough part will be to make Armenia (eventually at least) the senior partner...

Bruce
 
Another possibility: can Armenia join up with Georgia? UK of Armenia-Georgia gives it some strategic depth in the Caucuses: the tough part will be to make Armenia (eventually at least) the senior partner...

Bruce

Since Georgia is a relatively recent kingdom (union itself of two smaller ones), that might not be hard.

Might look like this (centered in Armenia rather than Georgia):

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Georgia/geor_tamro.GIF

Still the same problems on the whole, but no one said it had to stay a regional power forever.

And Armenia being in a "sea" of Islam is only an issue after Manzikert-or-so - up until then it borders both.

Not that being near the Byzantines is necessarily all good, but in terms of "Muslim sea", Armenia only has the south and east as Muslim neighbors.
 
Since Georgia is a relatively recent kingdom (union itself of two smaller ones), that might not be hard.

Might look like this (centered in Armenia rather than Georgia):

http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Georgia/geor_tamro.GIF

Still the same problems on the whole, but no one said it had to stay a regional power forever.

And Armenia being in a "sea" of Islam is only an issue after Manzikert-or-so - up until then it borders both.

Not that being near the Byzantines is necessarily all good, but in terms of "Muslim sea", Armenia only has the south and east as Muslim neighbors.

And as B_Munro asked... what if Armenia converted to Islam?
 
Directly Armenia probably can’t. With the OTL region being divided between Rome/Parthia/Sassanids and Byzantine/Sassanid/Caliphate it is going to get partitioned or conquered at some point. It needs a third power at least in the region so it can serve as a useful ally.

One way would be an event which keeps the hyper aggressive Roman Republic out of the way longer – that probably means a stronger Hellenistic state sitting between Rome and Parthia, which would leave a moderate sized Armenia a useful ally in a three power world between Rome, Parthia and the Hellenistic state.

A Byzantine win at Manzikert could be an opportunity – leaving the Armenian state as a partial counterbalance between the Byzantines/Fatimids and a weaker Seljuk state based further east.

If it gets converted to Islam it becomes more easily integrated into the early Caliphate and given the tendency to universal states in Islam under the Caliph until modern times it would tend to disappear.
 
And as B_Munro asked... what if Armenia converted to Islam?

Then . . . well, depends on what happens from there.

I suspect Armenian identity as we know it OTL is going to be unrecognizable to people in TTL, as Armenia becomes tied to the Iranic cultural sphere (not automatic but a likely development as it looks in that direction).

But I don't have a good answer for that one.
 
Then . . . well, depends on what happens from there.

I suspect Armenian identity as we know it OTL is going to be unrecognizable to people in TTL, as Armenia becomes tied to the Iranic cultural sphere (not automatic but a likely development as it looks in that direction).

But I don't have a good answer for that one.

I concur. Armenia was rather prone to be included into the Iranic sphere as it was. If she adopted Islam, Armenian might come to be perceived as little more than a strongly divergent Iranic dialect.
Not a given, yes (by the way, the ARE Armenian-speaking Muslims IOTL) but quite likely.
 
Perhaps this is cheating a bit, as this state was "sub Byzantine" as much as it was Armenian, but how about having Philaretos Brakhamios' little domain around Antioch survive and prosper, taking in the Taurus and Cilicia, the upper Euphrates, Cyprus, and a good chunk of Syria/Palestine too? A state considerably larger than modern Syria, with the wealth of the Cilician plain and Cyprus to support it, and located at the end of the Silk Road could be quite viable for some time.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
what about converting the Kurds ? several source say Kurds still pagan/yezidi/yazdani until 16th century. If they join Armenian Apostolic Church, Armenia will double its population.
 
I concur. Armenia was rather prone to be included into the Iranic sphere as it was. If she adopted Islam, Armenian might come to be perceived as little more than a strongly divergent Iranic dialect.
Not a given, yes (by the way, the ARE Armenian-speaking Muslims IOTL) but quite likely.

Would they go the Shi'ite side?
 

PhilippeO

Banned
But will she be Armenia still ?

Eh, probably. Kurd didn't have written language until 1932. If they go to Armenian Church and use Armenian alphabet, they are Armenian isn't it ?
 
Eh, probably. Kurd didn't have written language until 1932. If they go to Armenian Church and use Armenian alphabet, they are Armenian isn't it ?

Not correct AFAIK. Kurdish was written in Arabic script since the sixteeth century at least (source: Mirella Galletti, "Storia dei Curdi").
 
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