Ark Royal replaces Indomitable.

Jack1971

Banned
2 Nov 1941, HMS Indomitable hits a reef off Jamaica, taking her to Norfolk, VA for repairs until 19 Nov.

Interesting source for dates http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/11_months_INDOM.htm#.W1-3fhpE2hA

POD1. The damage to Indomitable is believed not to be severe, but sufficient to delay her, so the Admiralty decides to send Ark Royal and separately two avgas/oiler transports to the Far East on 4 Nov 1941 via South Africa. But first Ark returns to Britain from Gibraltar to load up the max aircraft and air personnel possible.

POD2. The Admiralty orders Phillips to wait in Ceylon for Ark Royal’s arrival. Thus, the torpedo that sunk Ark Royal ITTL on 14 Nov. 1941 never occurs, and Prince of Wales and Repulse do not arrive at Singapore before hostilities begin.

Questions..... what aircraft would Ark Royal embark? Those lifts are too narrow for non-folding aircraft. I assume it’s Fulmars and Albacores, and maybe some Skuas? How many aircraft can Ark embark in a useful fashion? How is the upcoming battle impacted?
 
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Are you thinking that the Ark will escort PoW and Repulse into Singapore, then? Could make for a very interesting TL. If they engage Japanese air power, I don't think things will end well. Sending Fulmars up against A6M is tantamount to murdering the crews yourself.
 
The Ark in late 41 carried 54 aircraft.

If Ark was in Force Z and it arrived late it would become the centerpiece of the ABDA Naval forces that IOTL was destroyed in the Java Sea in February 42. With Ark and Force Z available for Java Sea I doubt the IJN could win it.
 

Jack1971

Banned
The Ark in late 41 carried 54 aircraft.

If Ark was in Force Z and it arrived late it would become the centerpiece of the ABDA Naval forces that IOTL was destroyed in the Java Sea in February 42. With Ark and Force Z available for Java Sea I doubt the IJN could win it.
We have to assume the IJN would modify their own deployments. So, with ABDA having a fast carrier, a modern battleship, old battlecruiser and several cruisers, won’t this lead the IJN to send their own carrier and at least a pair of Kongos?

Given its loss to a single German torpedo ITTL, Ark Royal vs. one Long Lance hit would not bode well.
 
We have to assume the IJN would modify their own deployments. So, with ABDA having a fast carrier, a modern battleship, old battlecruiser and several cruisers, won’t this lead the IJN to send their own carrier and at least a pair of Kongos?

Given its loss to a single German torpedo ITTL, Ark Royal vs. one Long Lance hit would not bode well.

The IJN covering forces included a light carrier and other heavy ships.

Also the IJN was on a very tight schedule with its other operations, so might not be able to spare fleet carriers to deal with Force Z.
 
If the Ark Royal was hit by a long lance it would mean that things had got very bad for the allies as Japanese cruisers or destroyers would be in torpedo range to attack an enemy carrier.
 

Jack1971

Banned
The IJN covering forces included a light carrier and other heavy ships.

Also the IJN was on a very tight schedule with its other operations, so might not be able to spare fleet carriers to deal with Force Z.
If Force Z remains in Ceylon past the invasion from Thailand, the IJN can for the most part ignore it in the short term. If the RN is to help save Malaya it needs to kill the invasion craft. Unless there are reinforcements and supplies to escort to Singapore, after the IJN has its foothold in Malaya, all Force Z can do is prepare for a Dunkirk repeat and then ready to defend DEI.

As an aside, I’m going to Singapore and KUL in September. What historic sites of WW2 should I look for? The Battle Box in Singapore is top of list. I tried to book at Raffles, but it’s closed for renovations.
 
Given its loss to a single German torpedo ITTL, Ark Royal vs. one Long Lance hit would not bode well.

That hit was a bit of a fluke; it happened to hit the one place needed to knock out her power. She could still have been saved, had she not been abandoned before counterflooding could take place (her captain wanted to save her crew, and made little attempt at damage control). How to save her was a routine demonstration in the RN's damage control school for a long time after the war.
 
That hit was a bit of a fluke; it happened to hit the one place needed to knock out her power. She could still have been saved, had she not been abandoned before counterflooding could take place (her captain wanted to save her crew, and made little attempt at damage control). How to save her was a routine demonstration in the RN's damage control school for a long time after the war.

I thought the skipper also did not believe in counterflooding. Kind of an old school myth that you do not save a ship with a hole in it by letting in MORE water. If that's not true please let me know.
 
The IJN covering forces included a light carrier and other heavy ships.

Also the IJN was on a very tight schedule with its other operations, so might not be able to spare fleet carriers to deal with Force Z.

The KB operated in support of the invasion of Java from 25 February to 10 March 1942 so they were in the area for part of the operations in the DEI and were in the area during the Battle of the Java Sea. A lot of this will depend on what sort of trouble Force Z is causing. This could butterfly away the raid on Darwin.
 
From memory in regards to Ark Royals loss, didn't she also continue at speed due to loss of communications until a runner was sent, which enlarged the hole?
 
I thought the skipper also did not believe in counterflooding. Kind of an old school myth that you do not save a ship with a hole in it by letting in MORE water. If that's not true please let me know.

No, counterflooding was carried out, but it was too little, too late. The skipper wanted to avoid the heavy losses that had occurred aboard Courageous and Glorious, so took most of the crew off half an hour after the hit; unfortunately, this included most of the most trained damage control personnel. The standing damage control procedures also only provided instructions for counterflooding for lists of up to 8 degrees, an issue when she had an 18 degree list.
 
From memory in regards to Ark Royals loss, didn't she also continue at speed due to loss of communications until a runner was sent, which enlarged the hole?

Yeah, the hit knocked out communications to the engine rooms, so they did not slow the ship until communications were restored. This may well have enlarged the hole.
 
Are you thinking that the Ark will escort PoW and Repulse into Singapore, then? Could make for a very interesting TL. If they engage Japanese air power, I don't think things will end well. Sending Fulmars up against A6M is tantamount to murdering the crews yourself.

Would be true where they encountered them. AFIK the air groups that attacked the PoW & Repulse off Maylasia were beyond escort range. In that case the air battle looks more like the same Japanese aircrew attacking the Lexington in February. Thirteen of seventeen aircrew lost entirely & only three badly damaged aircraft returning to Rabaul. If the Brits are lucky they cross paths with one of the IJN carriers still flying the A5M Claude fighters :cool:
 
Would be true where they encountered them. AFIK the air groups that attacked the PoW & Repulse off Maylasia were beyond escort range. In that case the air battle looks more like the same Japanese aircrew attacking the Lexington in February. Thirteen of seventeen aircrew lost entirely & only three badly damaged aircraft returning to Rabaul. If the Brits are lucky they cross paths with one of the IJN carriers still flying the A5M Claude fighters :cool:
Which they would be because that's the only fighter on ryujo at the time and she was the only Japanese carrier covering the southern force at the time I belive
 
Which they would be because that's the only fighter on ryujo at the time and she was the only Japanese carrier covering the southern force at the time I belive

Eeewwu... :closedtongue: bad joss for those unlucky pilots that week. The down side for the RN is their pilots become overconfident.
 
Most of them have experience fighting nimble little Italians in the med so maybe not remember most of the fighters they've been fighting have been of the cr 42 and g 50 series which are tiny maneuverable little fighters
 

Jack1971

Banned
Are you thinking that the Ark will escort PoW and Repulse into Singapore, then
No, by the time Ark arrives at Ceylon I’d say the war is on and Singapore is not a safe harbour for static ships. Ark Royal, PoW, Repulse will need to operate from DEI, Australia or Ceylon.

Now, have Ark Royal, Repulse and Renown available in 1940 to support Britain’s preemptive invasion of FIC at the fall of France ahead of the Japanese Sept 1940 occupation, and absolutely the force goes to Singapore. But that’s another story.
If they engage Japanese air power, I don't think things will end well. Sending Fulmars up against A6M is tantamount to murdering the crews yourself.
If it’s Zeros and Kates, then pity the FAA crew. However, into 1942 the IJN’s smaller carriers, like Shoho and Honshu operated the A5M Claude (and the biplane TSR Yokosuka B4Y1). Against the A5M, Fulmars are about equal in performance and have a significant armament advantage.
 
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