Arius' revenge

Is there any conceivable way that the Arian Germanic tribes could convert Italy and Gaul to Arianism, or at least keep OTL Germany arain,given that the orthodox peoples had a higher level of cultural sophistication?
 
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Is there any conceivable way that the Arian Germanic tribes could convert Italy and Gaul to Arianism, or at least keep OTL Germany a rain,given that the orthodox peoples had a higher level of cultural sophistication?

Gaul seems possible. Maybe. If the goths stopped in Gaul and took it, perhaps.

Or modern Poland, maybe?
 

katchen

Banned
Never mind Italy. If the Arians got into the British Isles, there's probably no way Orthodox Christians could have dislodged them very soon. British history might have taken a very different turn, with Ireland perhaps Arian instead of besottedly Catholic because of St. Patrick and both Isles in effect having their Reformation a thousand years early and being at odds with the rest of Europe for the next thousand years or so. It would make an interesting TL. Could or would crusades be mounted against heretic Arian England, Scotland and Ireland?:eek:
 
This could spell serious troubles for Hiberia if Islam appears and follow similar path to Al-Andalus.. with religious infighting around...
 
Never mind Italy. If the Arians got into the British Isles, there's probably no way Orthodox Christians could have dislodged them very soon. British history might have taken a very different turn, with Ireland perhaps Arian instead of besottedly Catholic because of St. Patrick and both Isles in effect having their Reformation a thousand years early and being at odds with the rest of Europe for the next thousand years or so. It would make an interesting TL. Could or would crusades be mounted against heretic Arian England, Scotland and Ireland?:eek:

Surely the British Isles would eventually choose Catholicism over Arianism for similar reasons to the ones the Northumbrians chose it over the Celtic Christian traditions at the Synod of Whitby?

If France goes Catholic, then the Anglo-Saxons will probably convert in much the same way as the OTL conversion from paganism, and for similar reasons. I doubt crusades would be needed (and "crusades" as such didn't really develop as a theological concept until much later).
 
Never mind Italy. If the Arians got into the British Isles, there's probably no way Orthodox Christians could have dislodged them very soon. British history might have taken a very different turn, with Ireland perhaps Arian instead of besottedly Catholic because of St. Patrick and both Isles in effect having their Reformation a thousand years early and being at odds with the rest of Europe for the next thousand years or so. It would make an interesting TL. Could or would crusades be mounted against heretic Arian England, Scotland and Ireland?:eek:

The gaelic church was already heretical OTL. In fact that was the justification for the English invasion of Ireland by Henry II
 
Surely the British Isles would eventually choose Catholicism over Arianism for similar reasons to the ones the Northumbrians chose it over the Celtic Christian traditions at the Synod of Whitby?

If France goes Catholic, then the Anglo-Saxons will probably convert in much the same way as the OTL conversion from paganism, and for similar reasons. I doubt crusades would be needed (and "crusades" as such didn't really develop as a theological concept until much later).
At the very latest, the Arian Anglo-Saxons would have been conquered by the Normans, although that probably would have been butterflied.
 
The gaelic church was already heretical OTL. In fact that was the justification for the English invasion of Ireland by Henry II

Not at all : the difference between so-called "gaelic" or "celtic" churches (in fact, national churches of wales, cornwall, scotland, ireland as you can find on the continent) and roman one were extremely tiny.

Besides, any church was more national than anything in the Early Middle Ages including arian churches. You didn't have a clear common body for churches at this time (except the pope an at a REALLY symbolical way) except the kings that had authority on their church.

Regarding arian : it was doomed from the start. Not only germans were only partially arian, some catholics, some still pagans but they were extremly minoritary on the lands they controlled.

The only reason arian heresy managed to live up to the VII century was the germanic kings needed a way to separate as long as possible german and romans elites to prevent the appearance of a too powerful nobility AND to prevent the disappearance of a military elite that was partially based on germanic customs and arianism.

And when arianism was eventually shut down, you didn't even have a real answer or revolt : mixing between germans and romans already began at the benefit of orthodoxy.

I couldn't stress it enough : german kings didn't wanted to convert a population they wanted to separate from germanic elite. At the very best, they wanted to replace roman clerical elite (orthodox) with a more close, more faithful arian one (critically after theyt saw orthodox bishops of southern Gaul supportin Clovis' conquests).

If France goes Catholic, then the Anglo-Saxons will probably convert in much the same way as the OTL conversion from paganism, and for similar reasons. I doubt crusades would be needed (and "crusades" as such didn't really develop as a theological concept until much later).
1) Gaul was already catholics. Franks converted from paganism to orthodoxy because it was more easy to take Gaul against bigger fishes with the support of roman bishops.

2) For Britain, the situation is more complex. You see, Anglo-Saxons fought against orthodox-catholics Britons. They had no incitative to convert to christianism in the V/VI centuries as the local bishops (romano-brittons) wouldn't support them.
Only when their position is well established enough, and they need a legitimacy, they did.
 
I just thought how amazing it would be for a CKII mod if arianism dominated Germany,Scandanavia and the British Isles,but Islam,Eastern Orthodoxy, and Miaphysitism didn't arise.
 
The best way, I think, would be if the Goths were able to solidify themselves, and beat back the Franks (assuming no Byzantine intervention, of course). Under Theoderick, many of the Roman Arian churches had begun to merge in with the Gothic Church. If the Goths are able to win a great victory, it would make Arianism the prestige faith amongst Germans and may have seen some Roman converts as well. Likely Arianism becomes tthe faith in Germany and Britain (as stated, it would allow the Angles and Saxons to gain prestige and still differentiate themselves from the British rivals).
 
The best way, I think, would be if the Goths were able to solidify themselves, and beat back the Franks (assuming no Byzantine intervention, of course).

Under Theoderick, many of the Roman Arian churches had begun to merge in with the Gothic Church.
It's mostly due to the fact that under Theodoric, only the Goths and Vandals kept a more strong arianism. Amongst the western Germans, it was already history.

Furthermore, if religiously homeists churches tendend to be more like each other, it's as much due to the fact the arian kings didn't really wanted to launch theological debates.

Again, an early medieval church, before being homeist, catholic or whatever else is before all things when you remove the theological concerns, a national church ruled by the kings (and bishops, critically in orthodox churches).

If the Goths are able to win a great victory, it would make Arianism the prestige faith amongst Germans and may have seen some Roman converts as well.
I'm sorry but this is the most unlikely scenario possible. All the religious policy of Arian kings was to use arianism separate the romans and germans, to prevent the disapperence of a german nobility they could control better.

Really, the religious concerns weren't really present : even the Vandals fought with orthodox bishops more because they were opposing their power (while orthodox clergy in Italy by exemple, accepted Gothic arian political domination), keeping ties with Romans and trying to do with them what Gallic bishops did with Clovis,...
No really, while Huneric by exemple was the most militant german leader regarding arianism, his concerns aren't different of the others ones : Vandals being really minoritary, didn't having a real legitimacy to be in Africa (while Franks, Wisigoths, Ostrogoths, etc could point emperors gave them the administration of their lands), within an hostile population...

Likely Arianism becomes tthe faith in Germany and Britain (as stated, it would allow the Angles and Saxons to gain prestige and still differentiate themselves from the British rivals).
Again, I beg to differ : you see, for Anglo-Saxons, Aranism was as foreign than Orthodoxy. The whole point of keeping arianism by the germans settling in Roman lands was to preserve a national faith, a distinctive church that separated them from romans.

Not only paganism fulfill this as much, if not better, but a conversion to Arianism would be possible eventually only if the heresy is completly dominant : and even at the peak of hoemist influence, germans never managed to make converts at a noticable scale, at the contrary they were the one converted little by little.
 
make Arianism a bit stronger in the court of the first Burgundian kingdom, making Clotilde follow Arianism and not what anachronistically would be called Catholicism (Nicene faith)... this would Butterfly the conversion of Clovis I from Arianism to Catholicism, which in turn would make the Merovingians much less likely to pay mind of the Pope of Rome ... (the Primary source commenting on his conversion is highly suspect, among others because of a claim that he was a pagan previously, while there's surviving non-antagonistic letters between him and a bishop before he should have been converted ... dips quite a bit into him in this thread) ... and Arianism might have a good stab at gaining a permanent foothold as a Christian denomination instead of being called a heresy and chased around ... maybe even being the go-to denomination west/northwest of the alps

Doubt that it would change the alliance he had with ERE against the Visigoth (for one Anastasius I's mother was Arian, secondly they would otherwise have been disagreeing about certain religous prospects anyhows, thirdly Anastasius was a Miaphysite, which also had a questionable reputation and by certain groups deemed a heresy)
 
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