Are multiple industrial revolutions in different countries/regions possible?

To get an industrial revolution, you need a merchant/educated class with economic interests, a sizable middle class, some understanding of property rights to protect the inventors, and a reasonable level of private capital to spur development. And you need enough internal stability/lack of external threats for people to be able to act on their whims rather than producing swords or storming breaches. There are a lot of things that need to go right for it to happen and only a few things to go wrong to sabotage it.
No. You need a properly organized central government with the right resources and the right policies. The Song lacked the right policies. That's it.
 
Potatoes are going to be a big help anywhere. They're very efficient in terms of land and labor (rice is very efficient in terms of land, labor not so much) and would be the easiest way to improve agricultural productivity enough to help the countryside feed the cities.
that?
And then everyone can eat 감자탕 mmmmmm 감자탕
By your argument steel manufacture or at minimum assembly lines should have broken out within two hundred miles of Cuzco around 1200 AD. Got a few paragraphs on that?
 
By your argument steel manufacture or at minimum assembly lines should have broken out within two hundred miles of Cuzco around 1200 AD. Got a few paragraphs on that?

Hi there straw man. Potatoes don't cause industry but a good source of surplus food as, for example, caused by the agricultural revolution is very helpful. Potatoes are a quick and easy way to getting more calories per acre/worker.
 
So Neo-Confucianism?

Basically you are working within an extremely, extremely Eurocentric paradigm. The Renaissance exists only in Europe. They are dependent on European history, just as the Neo-Confucian movement exists only in China and Islamism is dependent on Islam. An area that does not have European history ergo cannot have a Renaissance. The concept is just meaningless outside (Western) Europe.

The IR is not dependent on the Renaissance. It is mainly about economic institutions.

The entire point of the Renaissance was about making The Point of Life about ordinary human beings making human choices from what they actually knew, and not about worshiping some Grand Cultural Paradigm regardless of the PAIN it would cost some individual trying to make their little way inside The Group. That was THE POINT of PERSPECTIVE in Renaissance Painting. This cultural mark was met in Renaissance Europe. I am an American Catholic (by choice) with rights and beliefs protected by my current government, decently protected since at least, oh, 1850. But this cultural mark has still HAS NOT been met in much of the world in 2016! The existence of economic and political institutions that push forward the ideal of individual human freedom Without Qualification, for the bare majority of the Industrialized World, have yet to arise. Go Song Dynasty! Go Freedom! Go Anarchy!
 
Last edited:
Hi there straw man. Potatoes don't cause industry but a good source of surplus food as, for example, caused by the agricultural revolution is very helpful. Potatoes are a quick and easy way to getting more calories per acre/worker.
No, no, no. I am Forty Percent Irish. If potatoes could have caused the Industrial Revolution I would be too rich to talk to the likes of you. What I mean is: Potatoes grow amid hedgerows and ditches and feed the lazy. Rice requires planning and intelligent cooperation. Now compare the current wealth of the Republic of Ireland to that of the PRC and you will see I meant no specific slur against Spud Culture.
 

missouribob

Banned
Dear Xianfeng Emperor and Missouribob,

How are you? How was your Summer? How are the Xianfeng Empresss and Mrs. Missouribob? Well, my college education ($75,000 est.) has finally paid off. Anyhow here's the thing: when did the Middle Kingdom ever give two schillings over what was "easy"?; Was the Great Wall easy? And how is paranoia so hard to create? It's an attitude adjustment, that's all. Weeks ago, I basically suggested to Darthfanta and friends that the Song had the material capital, the human capital, and the geopolitical awareness to create an AD 1000 equivalent of the CIA combined with DARPA combined with Civil Defense. And that ALONE might have led to China's domination of the World. I know; it sounds crazy; but I am not wrong and I challenge ANY USER to disprove me. I assert: the Song were MODERN before modern was cool, and bit the the dust ONLY because Temujin the Mongol (poor boy) was one of the Six Greatest Conquerors of history and set up his grandson Kublai for success.

My summer was pretty good thank you for asking. Before I respond directly to the thread and at risk of derailing this one, could you explain the Song Empire CIA/DARPA + Civil Defense concept?
 
My summer was pretty good thank you for asking. Before I respond directly to the thread and at risk of derailing this one, could you explain the Song Empire CIA/DARPA + Civil Defense concept?
I think this is what @balthasargettysburg means.
DARPA: The Song had an exceptionally large amount technological advantages, including a copy of Greek fire, the Pen Huo Qi as recorded in Wu Yue Bie Shi by Lin Yue. I will however point out that earlier versions of the Pen Huo Qi existed in the 5 Dynasties and 10 Kingdoms. These technological advances were mainly due to the frequent wars the Song had to face.
CIA: The Song was famous for frequent use of spies. Those who can read Chinese need only to search "宋朝间谍" (Song Dynasty Espionage) and you'll see why.
 
No. You need a properly organized central government with the right resources and the right policies. The Song lacked the right policies. That's it.

A properly organized government with the right policies and resources is a start. But that doesnt get you an industrial revolution anymore than wood and gasoline gets you a fire without a match and a person to light the match.

The textile industry lead the revolution in England because the middle class had enough disposable income to want to buy nicer clothes in volume. No disposable income/no need to mass produce textiles. Second, you need someone to appreciate the need for higher volume production. Why would a centralized government be so attuned to the whims of a middle class merchant? It's a long shot without private, individual initiative.

The exceptions to this might have been military weaponry or major, pyramidesque type projects. Perhaps an individual, keen to gain favor from higher ups could "industrialize" various processes. But, these endeavors usually have a limited lifespan - make a 100,000 swords and a million arrows for a campaign and you're done. It's too easy to draft the people and resources for one off issues, particularly with powerful monarchies and empires. Hence why neither of these efforts led to industrialization by the Chinese, Romans, Arabs, or anyone else.

I might be underestimating value of coal furnaces as a spark for the industrial revolution. But I have generally found that technological advances such as the ones made during the initial stages of the industrial revolution typically come from solving a problem (necessity is the mother of invention) rather than the reverse - develop the technology and then find ways to use it.
 
There need to be lots of people, lots of money, lots of raw materials, and the ability to make materials that can withstand pressure. IIRC, the Chinese had the technology to cast iron bells and (I think) cannons too. If they can do this, then they can manufacture iron to build at least low-pressure steam vessels. (After all, little steam wagons existed as toys in Europe for centuries before Newcomen's atmospheric engine. But first, there has to be a need to industrialise - i.e. windmills, waterwheels and animal and human muscle power are no longer enough.
 
Top