Are a Lutheran Lorraine possible?

Valdemar II

Banned
I was thinking and I'm sure whether I have posted about if before, about a Lutheran Lorraine, in OTL Montbéliard was the French speaking Lutheran area, what effect would it have if medium larger territorium as the Duchy of Lorraine converted or are it even possible in OTL several Luteran states survived as enclaves in Swabia, but would Lorraines position make it to sensible for Spanish or French invasions to survive?

If it survived would we see a wide spread of Lutheranism among the French, in OTL the different Protestant denominatian had some trouble jumping over the languages lines, while Calvinism had some succes it seem mostly to have spread to France from Calvins Geneva and Zwingli to the Rhineland to Netherlands , while most non-German Lutheran area was closely integrated into German trade network.

In OTL we Calvinism having mosty succes in South France, would Lutheranism be more succesful in the north, leading to a stronger through split Protestant position in France? Maybe leading to a more chaotic French War of Religion?
 
In OTL we Calvinism having mosty succes in South France, would Lutheranism be more succesful in the north, leading to a stronger through split Protestant position in France? Maybe leading to a more chaotic French War of Religion?

Calvinism was very popular in the North of France. It was called Jansenism ;)

Orthodox Lutheranism, that is the Lutheranism before the Prussian Union and forced assimilation with the Reformed Churches, was still quite similar to the Roman liturgy. Vestments were used, confessions were heard, and Latin mass settings were not uncommon. The conservative reformation of Lutheranism might have appealed to the French that were highly attracted to doctrinal but not liturgical change. In OTL the northern French chose an entirely different route: an uneasy and failed merger between Catholic liturgy and Calvinist doctrine.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, Mömpelgard ;) belonged to Württemberg, and Württemberg had a traditionally Lutheran ruling family. Indeed, core Württemberg is a pretty large Lutheran enclave as is in Swabia...

Lorraine, though, well, that House had always been closely connected to the Habsburgs (except for the French Guise line, of course), even centuries before the two houses fused. And I must say I have read nothing about any calls for reforms in that area - I mean, even Austria had a chance to go Lutheran, but as said, havent heard such things for Lorraine...

Everythings possible, though. Just have a different ruler during reformation time in Lorraine. Of course, such an early PoD would have immense butterflies...
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Calvinism was very popular in the North of France. It was called Jansenism ;)

Orthodox Lutheranism, that is the Lutheranism before the Prussian Union and forced assimilation with the Reformed Churches, was still quite similar to the Roman liturgy. Vestments were used, confessions were heard, and Latin mass settings were not uncommon. The conservative reformation of Lutheranism might have appealed to the French that were highly attracted to doctrinal but not liturgical change. In OTL the northern French chose an entirely different route: an uneasy and failed merger between Catholic liturgy and Calvinist doctrine.

I'm Lutheran, and not the German kind, the Nordic kind* which hasn't mix with Calvinism, and while I don't go to church often I'm aware of how we do it.

To the French subject if I remember correctly firstr of Jansenism was created rather late (a century after the Reformation and after the French Wars of Religion), here we would see Lutheran texts being more wide spread in "French" and likely some local noble convert before absolutism. While it may not have any effect at the very least it will give Lorraine a even stronger regional iodentity.

*And I even belong to one of the more Othodox factions.
 
To the French subject if I remember correctly firstr of Jansenism was created rather late (a century after the Reformation and after the French Wars of Religion).

Absolutely. Jansenism has been an active trend from 1640 to 1710 and its peak was between 1650 and 1670. One could argue, though, that Jansenism is more closely related to Augustinsim and Gallicanism that Calvinism.

As for a Lutheran Lorraine, I would say probably no : far too close to the Spanish Netherlands, far too close to the Guise branch of Lorraine who have been tempted, when not trying to sit on the French Throne, to establish their own realm in Lorraine. I guess cultural intimacy would have favored Calvinism if Protestant Reformation had to bloom in Lorraine anyway.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Absolutely. Jansenism has been an active trend from 1640 to 1710 and its peak was between 1650 and 1670. One could argue, though, that Jansenism is more closely related to Augustinsim and Gallicanism that Calvinism.

As for a Lutheran Lorraine, I would say probably no : far too close to the Spanish Netherlands, far too close to the Guise branch of Lorraine who have been tempted, when not trying to sit on the French Throne, to establish their own realm in Lorraine. I guess cultural intimacy would have favored Calvinism if Protestant Reformation had to bloom in Lorraine anyway.

Yes I would think so too, but several Protestant state ended up Lutheran even through they were more positive toward Calvinism/Zwinglism (Württemberg as a example), simply to create a united front toward the Emperor and Pope, beside Calvinism only came forward later, if Lorrainians Duke convert fast they will likely lean toward Zwinglism but choose Lutheranism out of political concern. Good point about the Guise, through we may end up with the irony that the Habsburg end up protecting the Lutheran Lorrainians to avoid French influence.
 
Yes I would think so too, but several Protestant state ended up Lutheran even through they were more positive toward Calvinism/Zwinglism (Württemberg as a example), simply to create a united front toward the Emperor and Pope, beside Calvinism only came forward later, if Lorrainians Duke convert fast they will likely lean toward Zwinglism but choose Lutheranism out of political concern. Good point about the Guise, through we may end up with the irony that the Habsburg end up protecting the Lutheran Lorrainians to avoid French influence.



Well, in that scenario, the only possibility I see is an early Ligue victory in France (which implies no Bourbons in Paris), who would crush the Politiques (the moderate Catholics who advocated a long-term truce between Catholics and Hugenots to put an end to England's and Spain's meddlings in French politics). A Ligue-led France would be a close ally to Spain, and would probably help Madrid against the United Provinces. Obviously worried for its independance, Lorraine may turn to Lutheranism and ally with the German Protestant states.

PS : I thought supporting little Protestant allies against a big Catholic common foe was a French speciality ?;)
 
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