Archimedes Invents Gunpowder

I like the timeline. Keep it up.

Will there be a greater respect for classical learning if it's a pagan who saves the Christianizing Roman Empire from being plowed under by barbarians?
 
I like the timeline. Keep it up.

Will there be a greater respect for classical learning if it's a pagan who saves the Christianizing Roman Empire from being plowed under by barbarians?

Well just because Pappus, Hermodorus, and Felix were pagans does not mean that it will change much, the cannon and fire powder will go down in this TL as the triumph of Constantine, and they will be basically forgotten.
 
Finally consider that IOT the widespread use of fireweapons spelled the death of the heavily armoured knight.
ITTL it's very likely that the infantry will remain the "Queen of battle", relegating cavalry to scout, mounted infantry and fast charge functions (more or less like during the thirty years war). This means that a the figure of the knight and the knightly mentality will never be developed, with HUGE repercussions.
It would also mean the quicker development of Dragoons, and Mounted Calvary.

339 A.D.- A Greek scientist in Massilia invents the earliest version of the Arquebus, and it is the first portable firearm. It is kept a secret but eventually it reaches the ears of Constantine II, who wishes to use it in his armies but keeps it a secret from his brothers.
I would expect Chinese type Hand Cannons first.
A Hand cannon is just what it sounds like. A 9"~12" long, 1.5~2" diameter Cannon Tied to the end of a short Stick.

Analytical Engine
Now I want to see Byzantines with machine guns.
Eric Flint's [Baen Books] Belirusus Series.
 
Mr. Clouds Is Here...

It's an ironic thread, because Constantinople fell how at the end? To cannon-firing Turks. If they'd invented cannon, mebbe they'd've hung in until artillery instead. But there's a reason the Turks adopted cannon instead of the Empire - the Roman Empire was awfully uninnovative, and increasingly Talibanesque. The Empire grew at its beginning rapidly by skating on the last round of Republic-invented military tech, and once it was obsolete shrank more than grew over the centuries until it was down to one city and somebody ELSE invented the cannon.

o Yeah, Archimedes was one smart man, and the ingredients were individually commonish, but there's nothing atall common about that combination of three ingredients, and he'd have to have some reason to believe it was promising to work on it. And he'd have to spend on it in place of other inventions and books. In OTL China, it was pure luck that Chinese happened to be interested in those three ingredients for alchemical research, and instead of whatever they expected, they got a KABOOM and a fire.

o Gunpowder was known for probably centuries around Constantinople, and it took their the Chinese - still-competitive in that day - to invent the cannon, and their NEIGHBORS the Ottomans to learn how to build and use them. Maybe if you have the cannon invented in the Republic, this part'd be more believable.

o Remember, monarchies have succession problems in terms of having many (IMHO 55%) of rulers not be up to the job, and long times of troubles between dynasties. Constantine was clearly up to the job, but IMHO none of the three C. sonny-boys who succeeded him were up to the job, just guessing from how they lost power. It's particularly clear about Constans.

o Early cannon were famously as dangerous for their users than their targets, and slow and hard in every way. Such even earlier cannon would be even worse, and you must take that into account. It was a big problem for the Ottomans, for example. Will they be a plus against barbarians once the 'new' burns off?

I recommend googling for Chinese cannon development to see the progression there.
 
If they'd invented cannon, mebbe they'd've hung in until artillery instead. But there's a reason the Turks adopted cannon instead of the Empire - the Roman Empire was awfully uninnovative, and increasingly Talibanesque.

What are you talking about? The late byzantine empire had severe economic problems in his last centuries. It' difficult to fund the develpment of an artillery park when you have to rely on external donation to go on.

The Empire grew at its beginning rapidly by skating on the last round of Republic-invented military tech, and once it was obsolete shrank more than grew over the centuries until it was down to one city and somebody ELSE invented the cannon.

Greek fire wasn't invented during repubblic, but in the 6th century. As for the empire being incapable of innovation should be noted that byzantine armies changed several times to match the different kinds of threats. The byzantine empire held his own during some very dire straits. Ironically it was the west who dealt the fatal blow with the 4th crusade.

gunpowder was known for probably centuries around Constantinople, and it took their the Chinese - still-competitive in that day - to invent the cannon, and their NEIGHBORS the Ottomans to learn how to build and use them.

The first use of gunpowder in Europe is recorded around the start of 14th century and by that time the byzantines were already in deep crisis, both political and economic. Mongols used some early kind of cannons during Kubilay's conquest of China, but with mixed results.
And for the matter the Ottomans built an artillery park only during the 15th century (thank to german experts, if memory doesn't fail me). It seems to me that you should read a bit about byzantine history ;).

I agree completely, thou, with the rate of development, far too fast.

I recommend googling for Chinese cannon development to see the progression there.

Better the late middle age development. Technologies were more similar. Besides the chinese iron ores had a different composition than the european kind.
 
Please do!
Where's Constantinople by the way, you haven't mentioned it? Please don't say the Queen of Cities was never founded! :(

Oh its been founded, I just haven't come across a reason yet to mention it, because when Hermodorus visits the court of Constantine Constantinople was still under construction and Rome was still his capital.
 
Oh its been founded, I just haven't come across a reason yet to mention it, because when Hermodorus visits the court of Constantine Constantinople was still under construction and Rome was still his capital.

Ah good stuff.
Sorry to nitpick, but Constantine's pre-Constantinople capital was Nicomedia not Rome, perhaps something to bear in mind for the final edition of this timeline.
Anyway, good luck with this, I look forward to following it :)
 
Ah good stuff.
Sorry to nitpick, but Constantine's pre-Constantinople capital was Nicomedia not Rome, perhaps something to bear in mind for the final edition of this timeline.
Anyway, good luck with this, I look forward to following it :)

Sorry, I thought it was other emperors that used Nicomedia, I will be sure to change that, but how often do you think Constantine visited Rome?
 
Sorry, I thought it was other emperors that used Nicomedia, I will be sure to change that, but how often do you think Constantine visited Rome?

I think only twice in his reign; once after the Battle of Millivan Bridge, and once to commemorate his 25th anniversary as Emperor. I know he personally hated the place, and was unpopular with the largely pagan Roman Senate.
 
I think only twice in his reign; once after the Battle of Millivan Bridge, and once to commemorate his 25th anniversary as Emperor. I know he personally hated the place, and was unpopular with the largely pagan Roman Senate.

Well, then I will have to adapt my timeline to those circumstances. I am no expert on the emperor Constantine, I know more about other time periods of Rome. Please let me know of anything else that is inaccurate and I will be sure to correct it. :)
 
Octavian, I realized I forgot to say that I think this' a waycool idea. Good luck with it. Also, I realized I forgot to mention how hard and expensive big cast metal was back then, though with a dependent technology and more effort spent, that might get better somewhat faster than OTL.

Cornelius wrote:
The late byzantine empire had severe economic problems in his last centuries.

Trust me, they coulda raised a nice loan if they'd offered a good prospect of reexpanding their Empire by inventing cannon. Just like the Ottomans probably did, since they weren't YET a big power. ... And, there's a reason it had big debts - all its good tax turf was gone, which, in turn, happened as I described, in no small part because it was outinnovated by their neighbors.

As for the empire being incapable of innovation

I didn't write that. It's that it was SLOW. Yeah, the cataphract was cool, but in the meantime their neighbors had come up with bunches more ideas than the legions, not just one. They shoulda had good horse centuries earlier, to counter the horse nomads and have a good answer to Persian horse. I mean, if the nomads kept winning, shouldn't it've occurred to them to, er, copy them? Oh, but they're just barbarians - what me worry?

Isn't what's important about a battle in which the better technology wins, who has and adapts his tactics to that technology and not how they get it? I mean, that was the bottom line - bye, bye Constantinople, hi Istanbul. A long argument on Byzantine innovation, which goes into all the points you've raised can be found here.
 
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To jkay

I've read your argumnets on both thread and seems to me you should really retake that course ;).

Trust me, they coulda raised a nice loan if they'd offered a good prospect of reexpanding their Empire by inventing cannon.

And who would have ever given them that money? The Pope didn't have any and he would have asked for the conversion of the byzantines, at very least! Venice had actually worked quite hard to bring down the empire and rob it of its more profitables cities and so on so forth.
The west saw the Byzantine empire just as a land to be conquered and exploited. I agree that was a shortsighted politc, but with hindsight everybody is a great strategist.
Besides don't forget that during that siege of Costantinopole (1453 AD) cannons were not really crucial. The city felled because there weren't enough soldiers to man the walls and there was no navy. All this against an enemy who fielded an army several times larger than the byzantine's one.

Yeah, the cataphract was cool, but in the meantime their neighbors had come up with bunches more ideas than the legions, not just one. They shoulda had good horse centuries earlier, to counter the horse nomads and have a good answer to Persian horse. I mean, if the nomads kept winning, shouldn't it've occurred to them to, er, copy them? Oh, but they're just barbarians - what me worry?

You seem a bit confused about the actual state of warfare during the roman and the byzantine empire.

The Legion was the best formation of her times. Proof of this is that all the late ellenic states tried to convert their armies to a legion style. Only the parthians were able to resist the romans given their better horsemanship. You should note, thou, that they weren't actually better than the romans, since they clashed along the borders with no definitive victory for centuries...
In the third century the romans copied the cataphractoi from the parthians and cavalry started to have an ever increasing importance in the army, especially in the fourth century with the division between limitanei and comitatenses made by Diocletian (by the way, he's the emperor who choose Nicomedia as his seat).
In the following centuries the byzantines increased the importance of cavalry to the point that Belisarius army during the Gothian war was composed nearly completely by cavalry.
With Heraklius we have the creation of the themata system, which allowed to raise large armies without having to pay them all the times (not a trifle argument, since the military spending was stranglig the byzantine economy).
Finally in the 11th century the byzantines tried to adopt the heavy armoured knight, but the empire had already suffered many bloody defeats and its emperors failed to revive it.

As for the question about the developing of a good cavalry, you should remember that without the stirrup cavalry itself wasn't really efficient. The antiquity never produced a good cavalry and in the end was infantry that carried the day. The notable exceptions are the Macedonian eteroi and the parthian cataphraktos, which were the expression of a landed nobility and of a "feudal" goverment system, something that was too alien from the roman mentality, and, notwithstanding that, they did adopt the heavy cavalry. Note, thou, that the parthian armies weren't invincible. Trajan conquered ther capitol with his legions...

As for the horse nomads, the romans actually defeated the huns (remember Aetius!) before the fall of the western empire, while the byzantines managed to repel and defeat several horse nomads (Avars, Hungars, Cumans, Bulgars etc.)
It's a common mistake thinking that the germans fought like cavalry. They usually fought as infantry, using horses just to move quikly. The only exception were the eastern german tribes which had came in contact with the huns, like the ostrogoths.

In the end, all the empires are doomed to fall, since nothing is eternal. It doesn't matter which goverment you choose or how much you invest into the military.
When Scipio watched Carthage burning down, he exclaimed: "And one day, Rome"
 
And who would have ever given them that money?
Er, how about same way the US pays for its F-22 development and USAF has hopes of radical overbuys? And, as I pointed out, no doubt how Turks paid for their cannon R&D cycle and buys to break down the wall. Moneylending seems to go back at least to Babylon.

You should note, thou, that they weren't actually better than the romans, since they clashed along the borders with no definitive victory for centuries...
That's an interesting approach for thinking about wars. We had all our turf left after Vietnam, so no loss there. The Soviets were crazy for even worrying in WW2 because they never lost decisively. The Germans had nothing to worry about until they losst Berlin, so why care which way the tanks are heading. And the French were able to create a new capital in WWII, so no definitive loss there, either, of course. Who cares if Hispania, Gaul, Italy and the starting city, and then Asia Minor are all lost, and if the overall border trend is inward? It's not a decisive victory, so who cares.

As you admitted yourself, the horsie wasn't exactly bloody useless before stirrups. Otherwise, why did early Persia, Alex, and so many horse nomads find them so useful for advancing their borders? Why does Polybius tell us that, time after time, the *legions* lost ground to Hannibal because they had fewer horsies?

I repeat, the Empire was slow about new horse units, as they were with every other kind of innovation, so slow at everything their units, tactics, and strategeries often were obsolete. Of course, it wasn't yet obsolete for Trajan; he was toward the end of that bubble I described above during when Roman Imperial practices from the Republic weren't yet obsolete. That, might be why Trajan himself thought his conquests were temporary.

And, I tend to be happy about that, because the quality of life went down alot later as the Empire went along, gradually going from tolerant to a Talibanesque quality.
 
Er, how about same way the US pays for its F-22 development and USAF has hopes of radical overbuys? And, as I pointed out, no doubt how Turks paid for their cannon R&D cycle and buys to break down the wall. Moneylending seems to go back at least to Babylon.

The turks actually diodn't pay for their R&D that way. Neither did anyone at the time. I'm begining to suspect you're viewing this as a strategy game.

as to the rest of your post:

http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Army-Wa...=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382677&sr=1-7

http://www.amazon.com/Equus-Horse-R...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382677&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Late-Roman-Ar...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382775&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Warfare-Europ...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382775&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Roman-Militar...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382884&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Rome-End...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382952&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Roman-Em...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230382952&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Later-Roman-E...=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230383130&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Die-barbarisc...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230383249&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Warh...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230383429&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Warf...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230383544&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armour-C...r_1_82?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230383730&sr=1-82

http://www.amazon.com/Reiter-Roms-Z...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230383791&sr=1-1

This should get you started on the non-evolution of Roman warfare and society.
 
Er, how about same way the US pays for its F-22 development and USAF has hopes of radical overbuys?

All right, economy 101. You lend money to someone else only if you can make a profit out of it. The Byzantine empire of the late 14th century was agonizing and didn't look as a "profitable venture".

That's an interesting approach for thinking about wars. We had all our turf left after Vietnam, so no loss there. The Soviets were crazy for even worrying in WW2 because they never lost decisively. The Germans had nothing to worry about until they losst Berlin, so why care which way the tanks are heading. And the French were able to create a new capital in WWII, so no definitive loss there, either, of course. Who cares if Hispania, Gaul, Italy and the starting city, and then Asia Minor are all lost, and if the overall border trend is inward? It's not a decisive victory, so who cares.

Do you know the difference between border clash and decisive victory? The parthians (and the sassanid after them) NEVER conquered any part of the roman empire.
To my knowledge, their most successful campaign was that of the early 7th century, when they managed to occupy large part of the middle east, but it was a very short time success, since Heraklius kicked them back in Persia...

The fall of the west roman empire is due to the so called "barbaric invasions" only at the first glance. The real reasons were the economic crisis, the demographic shrinkage and the slow collapse of the ancient world administrations, caused by the former two.

As you admitted yourself, the horsie wasn't exactly bloody useless before stirrups. Otherwise, why did early Persia, Alex, and so many horse nomads find them so useful for advancing their borders? Why does Polybius tell us that, time after time, the *legions* lost ground to Hannibal because they had fewer horsies?

Who won the Punic Wars?
Who conquered the hellenistic kingdoms?
Who kept the persians out of the mediterrean basin for centuries?

As for Hannibal, an army is as good as the general leading (especially in the ancient era). Hannibal was a military genius, but in the end he could never capitalize his victories. And, for the matter, while Hannibal was winning battles in Italy, the Scipiones were beating the punic armies in Spain...
 
Why did the Empah do so much worse, conquering-wise, than the Republic?

Cornelius:
On cannon dev $$, you're just speculating rather than arguing or showing evidence. They probably DID seize their citizens money when it suited them, since tyrannical monarchies have been doing that since they were invented. They coulda sold the treasures they lost to the Turks. Can you show they even thought of trying on cannon?

Yeah, Republican Rome won by fighting on the turf they could win on and because Hannibal showed less energy about closing the deal and taking Rome. Still, the fact is that for several years, the Roman open field belonged to somebody other than Rome. That cost them big in several ways. Clearly the Legion wasn't quite the best formation for that turf, was it? That meant Rome had to put up with losing lots of food and a serious loss of security for their citizens (a commonplace later in the Empire, uncoincidentally).

Here's the bottom line question - are you going to tell me the empire grew briefly and then shrank longterm on the pattern I described while Republican Rome had century after century mostly expanding, all for mostly EXTERNAL reasons? I want to see your answer to that big question, not about details or problems like econ-crashes and plagues that both Republic and Empire faced. You've been blowing smoke, I say, to keep from looking at where the Empire's problems came from.


carlton_bach: no, the Turks sure didn't CALL it R&D. But the clear FACT for anybody pushing the edge is that they WILL spend extra time and money understanding how to build and use new things, and living with problems, like V22 and election machines in our recent history. And that's what happened, in fact.

How about actually addressing my evidence and arguments, if you think I'm wrong. You could start by actually reading my posts carefully enough to address what I WROTE instead of what you imagined I wrote. I'm glad you've read lots of books - it's a good thing to do; I entirely approve.

While we're at it, carlton, maybe you could answer that same question I posed Cornelius.
 
Cornelius:
On cannon dev $$, you're just speculating rather than arguing or showing evidence. They probably DID seize their citizens money when it suited them, since tyrannical monarchies have been doing that since they were invented. They coulda sold the treasures they lost to the Turks. Can you show they even thought of trying on cannon?

Yeah, Republican Rome won by fighting on the turf they could win on and because Hannibal showed less energy about closing the deal and taking Rome. Still, the fact is that for several years, the Roman open field belonged to somebody other than Rome. That cost them big in several ways. Clearly the Legion wasn't quite the best formation for that turf, was it? That meant Rome had to put up with losing lots of food and a serious loss of security for their citizens (a commonplace later in the Empire, uncoincidentally).

Here's the bottom line question - are you going to tell me the empire grew briefly and then shrank longterm on the pattern I described while Republican Rome had century after century mostly expanding, all for mostly EXTERNAL reasons? I want to see your answer to that big question, not about details or problems like econ-crashes and plagues that both Republic and Empire faced. You've been blowing smoke, I say, to keep from looking at where the Empire's problems came from.


carlton_bach: no, the Turks sure didn't CALL it R&D. But the clear FACT for anybody pushing the edge is that they WILL spend extra time and money understanding how to build and use new things, and living with problems, like V22 and election machines in our recent history. And that's what happened, in fact.

How about actually addressing my evidence and arguments, if you think I'm wrong. You could start by actually reading my posts carefully enough to address what I WROTE instead of what you imagined I wrote. I'm glad you've read lots of books - it's a good thing to do; I entirely approve.

While we're at it, carlton, maybe you could answer that same question I posed Cornelius.

Ok, I will step in to the argument here. The Roman Empire of the 14th century was one of the poorest and weakest states in Europe, there was no way they could have afforded to build or hire cannons from anywhere. There were a handful of cannons at the siege of Constantinople, but they could no more afford cannons than modern Zimbabwe can afford a fleet of aircraft carriers.

Republican Rome's armies of the 3rd century BC did not even operate on what we would recognize as a "legionary" pattern; I am no expert, but I am fairly sure that much of the Roman army was then composed of aristocracy, who fought as hoplite spearmen. It was not until the reforms of Gaius Marius at the end of the 2nd century BC that the classic legionary emerged.

Republican Rome, on the contrary, expanded largely for one internal reason; individual greed. It's no coincidence that the biggest Roman expansion came in the 1st century BC, as this was the period when the Republic had largely fallen under the control of rival warlords; Marius, Sulla, Pompey, Caesar, Crassus, Mark Antony and the rest. These men conquered hamstrung puppet states to gain power and influence in the capital, rather than for any real desire to expand Roman rule. Indeed, despite establishing herself as the dominant Mediterranean power after 190BC, Rome remained distinctly unwilling to establish direct rule; this is why the Hellenistic Kingdoms largely collapsed in this period, they retained independence, but were forbidden from having too large an army to defend themselves from exterior aggression, lest Rome intervene.

And trying to compare late Roman history with WW2 history is simply wrong. Nazi Germany's position was completely different from that of the Roman Empire in the 14th century.

I hope I have answered some of your points.
 
On cannon dev $$, you're just speculating rather than arguing or showing evidence. They probably DID seize their citizens money when it suited them, since tyrannical monarchies have been doing that since they were invented. They coulda sold the treasures they lost to the Turks. Can you show they even thought of trying on cannon?

Big news! By the time of the turk conquest ALL the money was gone by a long time. During the 4th crusade and the following years Costantinople was litterally depredated of anything of value. The ottomans could have actually taken the city even before the 1453, but they preferred to pursue other conquest before. And the cannon played quite a minor part during the siege, as I wrote before.

Yeah, Republican Rome won by fighting on the turf they could win on and because Hannibal showed less energy about closing the deal and taking Rome. Still, the fact is that for several years, the Roman open field belonged to somebody other than Rome. That cost them big in several ways. Clearly the Legion wasn't quite the best formation for that turf, was it? That meant Rome had to put up with losing lots of food and a serious loss of security for their citizens (a commonplace later in the Empire, uncoincidentally).

Because clearly you are a better strategist than Hannibal. Do you wondered why no city a part from Cuma and Syracuse, during the second punic war, changed side? Do you asked why Hannibal had to wander trough South Italy without obtaing any significative success for nearly twenty years? And by the way who won at Zama? And with which army?
And if the legion was so bad why it was adopted by the late hellenistic states?

are you going to tell me the empire grew briefly and then shrank longterm on the pattern I described while Republican Rome had century after century mostly expanding, all for mostly EXTERNAL reasons? I want to see your answer to that big question, not about details or problems like econ-crashes and plagues that both Republic and Empire faced.

The empire grew till the 2nd century current era, reaching its maximum extension under Trajan. By the third century the economic crisis and the drop of population stunted any possible effort to the growth, in other words the empire was forced on the defensive.
And if you think that economy is not important or is a detail you should try to read a newspaper a learn how life is.
I've the distinct feel that you imagine history like a wargame, where you have to manage just the battles to build great empires, but truth is that real life is much more complicated than that and involve lots of that boring details like economy, demographics, burocracy and so on so forth.

How about actually addressing my evidence and arguments, if you think I'm wrong. You could start by actually reading my posts carefully enough to address what I WROTE instead of what you imagined I wrote. I'm glad you've read lots of books - it's a good thing to do; I entirely approve.
You could try to read them too...
 
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