Archduke John Charles, son of HRE Ferdinand II survives

Ok, well I would assume given the age similarities that the children of John Charles and Leopold V of Tyrol would probably be matched up with each other unless Philips luck changes and a Spanish bride older than Maria Theresa is available.
Interesting, would Maria Eugenia be marked for Louis xiv then?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Well, I meant if Maria Theresa is still the oldest living daughter of Philip she might be too young for a first born so of Maria Anna and John Charles but Leopold V's daughters might line up age wise. If Maria Eugenia is alive that could work. Probably depends on all the players involved, and how the 30YW and potentially also the Franco-Spanish War is concluded by Emperor John.

Also is that what we'd be calling him, or does anyone think he'd go by Charles VI to try to invoke some sense of continuity? John Charles seems less likely but I suppose is also possible.
 
Well, I meant if Maria Theresa is still the oldest living daughter of Philip she might be too young for a first born so of Maria Anna and John Charles but Leopold V's daughters might line up age wise. If Maria Eugenia is alive that could work. Probably depends on all the players involved, and how the 30YW and potentially also the Franco-Spanish War is concluded by Emperor John.

Also is that what we'd be calling him, or does anyone think he'd go by Charles VI to try to invoke some sense of continuity? John Charles seems less likely but I suppose is also possible.

Hmm keeping Maris Eugenia alive makes things interesting as does keeping her sister Isabella alive also. I can see one marrying Louis Xiv whose older here, and another marrying John Charles firstborn. If it works out like thay. Would John Charles be sorting out the war between Spain and France diplomatically? And Charles VI could be a good look
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Could Ferdinand II not name his son Ferdinand archduke of further Austria?

Well Ferdinand didn't formally make his brother Leopold Archduke of Further Austria until 1625 up until that point Leopold was merely governor of those territories on Ferdinand's behalf. So I suppose it's possible that Ferdinand could refuse to enfeof his brother (not sure if that's the right term in this context) with the intent of making his younger son ruler there.

But I'm not sure, since Ferdinand was initially inclined to make Austria a Kingdom so it couldn't be broken up amongst different lines again like it was under Ferdinand I's will. But his younger brothers Leopold and Charles protested and the plan came to nothing. It's also worth considering how the marriage contract between John Charles and Maria Anna would look, if it contains any concessions relating to the previous succession of territory in further Austria to Spain persuant to the Onate Treaty. I'm not sure if that had been worked into their betrothal or not.
 
Well Ferdinand didn't formally make his brother Leopold Archduke of Further Austria until 1625 up until that point Leopold was merely governor of those territories on Ferdinand's behalf. So I suppose it's possible that Ferdinand could refuse to enfeof his brother (not sure if that's the right term in this context) with the intent of making his younger son ruler there.

But I'm not sure, since Ferdinand was initially inclined to make Austria a Kingdom so it couldn't be broken up amongst different lines again like it was under Ferdinand I's will. But his younger brothers Leopold and Charles protested and the plan came to nothing. It's also worth considering how the marriage contract between John Charles and Maria Anna would look, if it contains any concessions relating to the previous succession of territory in further Austria to Spain persuant to the Onate Treaty. I'm not sure if that had been worked into their betrothal or not.
Oh interesting is not known about the onate treaty, was thay where the Austrian possessions were willed to the Spanish habsburgs should the Austrian line die out? And would thay stand he more likely it is that Hohn and his wife are having kids?
 
Well Ferdinand didn't formally make his brother Leopold Archduke of Further Austria until 1625 up until that point Leopold was merely governor of those territories on Ferdinand's behalf. So I suppose it's possible that Ferdinand could refuse to enfeof his brother (not sure if that's the right term in this context) with the intent of making his younger son ruler there.

But I'm not sure, since Ferdinand was initially inclined to make Austria a Kingdom so it couldn't be broken up amongst different lines again like it was under Ferdinand I's will. But his younger brothers Leopold and Charles protested and the plan came to nothing. It's also worth considering how the marriage contract between John Charles and Maria Anna would look, if it contains any concessions relating to the previous succession of territory in further Austria to Spain persuant to the Onate Treaty. I'm not sure if that had been worked into their betrothal or not.
Reading through it, I think the terms of the onate treaty would likely have been met by the time of the marriage, so there shouldn’t be an issue there no?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
The Onate Treaty was basically an agreement between Philip III of Spain and Ferdinand (then merely ruler of Inner Austria) to handle the succession once the line of Maximilian II died out. Since none of Maximilian's sons had children the theoretical heir to the crowns of Bohemia and Hungary once Matthias, Albert and Maximilian III were all dead would be the children their sister Anna of Austria who had married her uncle Philip II of Spain. So in other words the heir was Philip III. So the idea was Philip would support Ferdinand's claim over his own and in exchange once he was Emperor and ruler of Austria he would be give further Austria to Spain which had strategic value to them as it could be used to support the Spanish Road linking Spanish Italy to the Netherlands. Ferdinand also agreed to place the male heirs of Philip over his own daughters in the future succession. The portion concerning the succession of territories to Spain was kept secret even from the Emperor Matthias and his surviving brothers for fear of jeopardizing Ferdinand's succession.

The legacy of this agreement was the strong link between the two branches of the family during the 30YW and the initial betrothal of Ferdinand's son to Philip's daughter. But I don't know if that betrothal had any specific language in the marriage contract to support the terms of the Treaty.
 
The Onate Treaty was basically an agreement between Philip III of Spain and Ferdinand (then merely ruler of Inner Austria) to handle the succession once the line of Maximilian II died out. Since none of Maximilian's sons had children the theoretical heir to the crowns of Bohemia and Hungary once Matthias, Albert and Maximilian III were all dead would be the children their sister Anna of Austria who had married her uncle Philip II of Spain. So in other words the heir was Philip III. So the idea was Philip would support Ferdinand's claim over his own and in exchange once he was Emperor and ruler of Austria he would be give further Austria to Spain which had strategic value to them as it could be used to support the Spanish Road linking Spanish Italy to the Netherlands. Ferdinand also agreed to place the male heirs of Philip over his own daughters in the future succession. The portion concerning the succession of territories to Spain was kept secret even from the Emperor Matthias and his surviving brothers for fear of jeopardizing Ferdinand's succession.

The legacy of this agreement was the strong link between the two branches of the family during the 30YW and the initial betrothal of Ferdinand's son to Philip's daughter. But I don't know if that betrothal had any specific language in the marriage contract to support the terms of the Treaty.
Oh interesting, hmm doing some reading and I can’t find anything that suggested any sort of terms for the betrothal to support the terms of the treaty? Perhaps rhe war has negated it
 
Or,perhaps Ferdinand could get Philip or his son Philip IV to accept something else in regards to their claims?
 

Vitruvius

Donor
Of,course otl it seems that the exchange didn’t happen as Leopold ended up as duke, so?

Yeah, the territorial concessions never materialized. I only bring it up here as a potential concern because OTL the sequence of events was

1617 Onate Treaty
1619 John Charles dies
1626 Leopold is made Archduke of the Tyrol
1626 Maria Anna is betrothed to Ferdinand
1628 marriage contract signed
1629 Maria Anna and Ferdinand married.

but here the marriage to John Charles would be proceeding from a betrothal presumably made sometime between 1617-19 with a marriage probably in the early 1620s. So the issue will probably be 'fresh' and Leopold will not yet have been given the Tyrol. So it could be a concern rather than a settled issue as I think it probably was when Maria Anna and Ferdinand married OTL.

And for what it's worth Ferdinand II proposed the idea of an Austrian Kingdom to his brothers in 1623. Charles left for Spain in 1624 to become Viceroy of Portugal but died on his way there. Leopold resigned his Bishoprics in 1625 in favor of Leopold Wilhelm and married Claudia de' Medici in 1626. It wasn't conceded full authority as independent ruler of the Tyrol until 1630. So depending on how Ferdinand juggles all of these players with a different heir, and three rather than two sons things could play out differently. I almost wonder if Ferdinand having more sons would make him less inclined to divide up his territories. I kind of think that after the Brother's Quarrel between the various sons of Maximilian II that he'd be leery of repeating the mistake Ferdinand I made in his will by dividing up the Austrian territories and weakening the the strength of the main line, especially at a time of war and rebellion within the Empire when their authority is being challenged.
 
Yeah, the territorial concessions never materialized. I only bring it up here as a potential concern because OTL the sequence of events was

1617 Onate Treaty
1619 John Charles dies
1626 Leopold is made Archduke of the Tyrol
1626 Maria Anna is betrothed to Ferdinand
1628 marriage contract signed
1629 Maria Anna and Ferdinand married.

but here the marriage to John Charles would be proceeding from a betrothal presumably made sometime between 1617-19 with a marriage probably in the early 1620s. So the issue will probably be 'fresh' and Leopold will not yet have been given the Tyrol. So it could be a concern rather than a settled issue as I think it probably was when Maria Anna and Ferdinand married OTL.

And for what it's worth Ferdinand II proposed the idea of an Austrian Kingdom to his brothers in 1623. Charles left for Spain in 1624 to become Viceroy of Portugal but died on his way there. Leopold resigned his Bishoprics in 1625 in favor of Leopold Wilhelm and married Claudia de' Medici in 1626. It wasn't conceded full authority as independent ruler of the Tyrol until 1630. So depending on how Ferdinand juggles all of these players with a different heir, and three rather than two sons things could play out differently. I almost wonder if Ferdinand having more sons would make him less inclined to divide up his territories. I kind of think that after the Brother's Quarrel between the various sons of Maximilian II that he'd be leery of repeating the mistake Ferdinand I made in his will by dividing up the Austrian territories and weakening the the strength of the main line, especially at a time of war and rebellion within the Empire when their authority is being challenged.
Hmm this is true, could he allow Spanish troops in further Austria, for the purpose of the war, hoping to swing things later on if he's winning the war in rhe empire?
 
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