Aragonese Toulouse: How does succession work?

[Lexyflop]

I’ve been developing a “Tolouse and Provence eventually become an independent country” timeline thing and the POD is gonna be Alfonso the second of Aragon marrying Azalais of Toulouse rather than Sancha of Castile. The connection with Toulouse leads to Alfonso deciding not to give up his title as Count of Provence, and it pays off when Raymond IV gets distracted by a butterfly while on a horse ride and dies (this is weak lol) and Aubri soon follows (Can’t find anything saying why she died?) a leaving Azalais as the heir to the count of Toulouse and giving Alfonso a way into putting Toulouse under the Aragonese crown.

What i’m unsure of is how exactly he’d like, consolidate this. His wife would be the rightful heir here and he seems to have had a good relationship with Raymond V so that wouldn’t be an obstacle, but the country was a sovereign of France so, would the French want to fight for it? Or would the power of succession be something they wouldn’t be able to fight against. And presumably not all of the nobles in Toulouse would want Aragonese rule anyways, so there might be rebellions to deal with too.

So, how might this event play out? Is it possible for a peaceful claimance or would there be a fight for it.


Sorry if this is poorly worded or a silly question!

 

[kasumigenx]

I’ve been developing a “Tolouse and Provence eventually become an independent country” timeline thing and the POD is gonna be Alfonso the second of Aragon marrying Azalais of Toulouse rather than Sancha of Castile. The connection with Toulouse leads to Alfonso deciding not to give up his title as Count of Provence, and it pays off when Raymond IV gets distracted by a butterfly while on a horse ride and dies (this is weak lol) and Aubri soon follows (Can’t find anything saying why she died?) a leaving Azalais as the heir to the count of Toulouse and giving Alfonso a way into putting Toulouse under the Aragonese crown.

What i’m unsure of is how exactly he’d like, consolidate this. His wife would be the rightful heir here and he seems to have had a good relationship with Raymond V so that wouldn’t be an obstacle, but the country was a sovereign of France so, would the French want to fight for it? Or would the power of succession be something they wouldn’t be able to fight against. And presumably not all of the nobles in Toulouse would want Aragonese rule anyways, so there might be rebellions to deal with too.

So, how might this event play out? Is it possible for a peaceful claimance or would there be a fight for it.


Sorry if this is poorly worded or a silly question!

Or Peter II marrying Constance of Toulouse instead of Maria of Montpellier.

 

[Mildtryth]

.I’ve been developing a “Tolouse and Provence eventually become an independent country” timeline thing and the POD is gonna be Alfonso the second of Aragon marrying Azalais of Toulouse rather than Sancha of Castile. The connection with Toulouse leads to Alfonso deciding not to give up his title as Count of Provence, and it pays off when Raymond IV gets distracted by a butterfly while on a horse ride and dies (this is weak lol) and Aubri soon follows (Can’t find anything saying why she died?) a leaving Azalais as the heir to the count of Toulouse and giving Alfonso a way into putting Toulouse under the Aragonese crown.

What i’m unsure of is how exactly he’d like, consolidate this. His wife would be the rightful heir here and he seems to have had a good relationship with Raymond V so that wouldn’t be an obstacle, but the country was a sovereign of France so, would the French want to fight for it? Or would the power of succession be something they wouldn’t be able to fight against. And presumably not all of the nobles in Toulouse would want Aragonese rule anyways, so there might be rebellions to deal with too.

So, how might this event play out? Is it possible for a peaceful claimance or would there be a fight for it.


Sorry if this is poorly worded or a silly question!

I presume you meant Raymond V, since Raymond IV was a contemporary of Alfonso I. Or even Raymond VI, given you'd need to get rid of him before 1179.

Also, Aubry these days was a male name - said Aubry married Béatrice, Countess of Albon and Dauphine of Viennois, but died childless, so you don't have to worry about him.

Also, you'd also need a earlier POD than what you propose - that Viennois match? it was made because Raymond V was looking for allies against Barcelona. But that still could work - say, Raymond V loses a war against Ramon Berenguer II and has to agree to marry his daughter to Alfonso or something.

But did I mention there was also a third son named Baldwin, who would inherit in case neither Raymond or Aubry had any children? and that this Baldwin lived well into the Albigensian Crusade and still has descendants today?

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

This is the time period of the height of the Angevin empire- most of France is controlled by the king of England, I don’t think Paris is in any position to stop Toulouse going to Aragon.

Apparently Eleanor of Aquitaine had her own claims to Toulouse which she pressed both her husbands to pursue, so the inheritance might be disputed by the angevins. Alfonso might get toulouse but be force to do homage for it to the angevins.

 

[Lexyflop]

I presume you meant Raymond V, since Raymond IV was a contemporary of Alfonso I. Or even Raymond VI, given you'd need to get rid of him before 1179.

Also, Aubry these days was a male name - said Aubry married Béatrice, Countess of Albon and Dauphine of Viennois, but died childless, so you don't have to worry about him.

Also, you'd also need a earlier POD than what you propose - that Viennois match? it was made because Raymond V was looking for allies against Barcelona. But that still could work - say, Raymond V loses a war against Ramon Berenguer II and has to agree to marry his daughter to Alfonso or something.

But did I mention there was also a third son named Baldwin, who would inherit in case neither Raymond or Aubry had any children? and that this Baldwin lived well into the Albigensian Crusade and still has descendants today?

yeah i meant Raymond V! apologies, i really need to stop posting these late at night.

I actually didn’t know about the reasoning behind the matches so thank you for that info I’ll probably end up making that the POD instead then.

I actually completely forgot about Baldwin woops, that does throw quite a wrench into things given how inheritance worked at the time.

 

[Lexyflop]

This is the time period of the height of the Angevin empire- most of France is controlled by the king of England, I don’t think Paris is in any position to stop Toulouse going to Aragon.

Apparently Eleanor of Aquitaine had her own claims to Toulouse which she pressed both her husbands to pursue, so the inheritance might be disputed by the angevins. Alfonso might get toulouse but be force to do homage for it to the angevins.

I think doing homage is something he could stomach, and it’d secure a connection with Angevin against France for a little while at least. If France can’t try and do anything about it until later on then it gives enough time for Aragon to get Tolouse region a bit more organised.

 

[kasumigenx]

This is the time period of the height of the Angevin empire- most of France is controlled by the king of England, I don’t think Paris is in any position to stop Toulouse going to Aragon.

Apparently Eleanor of Aquitaine had her own claims to Toulouse which she pressed both her husbands to pursue, so the inheritance might be disputed by the angevins. Alfonso might get toulouse but be force to do homage for it to the angevins.

Peter II of Aragon can marry Eleanor of Brittany...

 

[Lexyflop]

Peter II of Aragon can marry Eleanor of Brittany...

did Eleanor have any links with the Toulousian counts? if so this could be a good path

 

[kasumigenx]

did Eleanor have any links with the Toulousian counts? if so this could be a good path

The Plantagenets can cede their claims to Toulouse by marrying her to Peter II and I doubt that Peter II would claim the Angevin inheritance for her.

 

[isabella]

did Eleanor have any links with the Toulousian counts? if so this could be a good path

If Richard I dies childless as OTL and her bother Arthur has the OTL fate, Eleanor of Brittany would be the senior heiress of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who is her paternal grandmother

 

[kasumigenx]

If Richard I dies childless as OTL and her bother Arthur has the OTL fate, Eleanor of Brittany would be the senior heiress of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who is her paternal grandmother

did Eleanor have any links with the Toulousian counts? if so this could be a good path

Eleanor of Brittany is the senior heiress of Eleanor of Aquitaine but she will not be Eleanor's chosen heir in this scenario and will be given a rich dowry and territorial concession like Gascony borders and the County of Toulouse so Peter II will not claim Eleanor's claim to the Angevin Empire, and it is possible that Constance of Brittany will remove her from succession in this scenario.

 

[kasumigenx]

John of England can marry Eleanor of Aragon in this scenario, she does not have a good obstetric record iotl but it can be butterflied.

 

[Lexyflop]

Eleanor of Brittany is the senior heiress of Eleanor of Aquitaine but she will not be Eleanor's chosen heir in this scenario and will be given a rich dowry and territorial concession like Gascony borders and the County of Toulouse so Peter II will not claim Eleanor's claim to the Angevin Empire, and it is possible that Constance of Brittany will remove her from succession in this scenario.

If Richard I dies childless as OTL and her bother Arthur has the OTL fate, Eleanor of Brittany would be the senior heiress of Eleanor of Aquitaine, who is her paternal grandmother

Ah i see, this makes a lot of sense! Thank you for the help
So should the POD be Alfonso keeping Provence and then making some sort of arrangement for Peter to marry Eleanor? Then Raymond VI dies young and the Plantagenets support Peter and Eleanor putting Tolouse under the Aragon crown and subduing Raymond V’s remaining kids. Or should Alfonso get with Azalais first.

 

[ike225]

IIRC until Philip II the French royal power below the Loire river was non existant. If the Aragonese gains Toulouse and are able to hold it, thus uniting Aragon, Toulouse and Provence, then the Capets can do fuck all about it. Especially with the Angevins already holding half the lands in France.

France would be fucked with 4 powerblocks
-Angevins own Normandy, Maine, Anjou, Aquitaine,
-Aragon- Toulouse-Provence
-Blois holds Blois & Champagne
-Flanders

 

[kasumigenx]

Ah i see, this makes a lot of sense! Thank you for the help
So should the POD be Alfonso keeping Provence and then making some sort of arrangement for Peter to marry Eleanor? Then Raymond VI dies young and the Plantagenets support Peter and Eleanor putting Tolouse under the Aragon crown and subduing Raymond V’s remaining kids. Or should Alfonso get with Azalais first.

I think both can happen but with Alfonso marrying Azalais, OTL Peter II is butterflied but with Peter II marrying Eleanor of Brittany, Peter II gains the claims of Eleanor of Aquitaine to Toulouse.

 

[kasumigenx]

Ah i see, this makes a lot of sense! Thank you for the help
So should the POD be Alfonso keeping Provence and then making some sort of arrangement for Peter to marry Eleanor? Then Raymond VI dies young and the Plantagenets support Peter and Eleanor putting Tolouse under the Aragon crown and subduing Raymond V’s remaining kids. Or should Alfonso get with Azalais first.

Although Alfonso not granting Provence to his second son can cause Butterflies...

 

[kasumigenx]

If Peter II gains claims to Toulouse he can support the Albigensian Crusade.

 

[kasumigenx]

Another possible match is Matilda of England and Alfonso II of Aragon but here Eleanor of England marries Henry VI of HRE

 

[Lexyflop]

Another possible match is Matilda of England and Alfonso II of Aragon but here Eleanor of England marries Henry VI of HRE

Now this could be interesting cus that could butterfly all the shit that went down with the throne dispute after Henry VI’s death. Things could come together very interestingly here

 

[kasumigenx]

This timeline is my attempt at this scenario but with Eleanor of Brittany marrying Peter II of Aragon inspired by this thread, I created other family trees in the alternate nobility trees thread about Matilda of England marrying Alfonso II of Aragon.

Pyrenean Treaty – An Aragonese timeline

On October of 1200, John of England would sign a treaty with King Peter II of Aragon betrothing Eleanor of Aragon to Arthur I of Brittany and Eleanor of Brittany with Peter II of Aragon in Auch, this treaty was proposed shortly by John after the marriage of Isabella of Angouleme to King John in...

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