Aragon and Castille have no Personal Union

1) Probably that Castilla don't badass Navarra, but badass Americas

2)Aragon continues is Mediterranean geopolitic and absolutly doesn't care about a certain genoan delirium tremens, maybe a struggle with France

3)Grenada will survive? I don't think so. But an harder share between our Catholic sovereigns :D

4)For most of its, Castilla continues ATl the Spain politics in OTL
 
1) Probably that Castilla don't badass Navarra, but badass Americas

2)Aragon continues is Mediterranean geopolitic and absolutly doesn't care about a certain genoan delirium tremens, maybe a struggle with France

3)Grenada will survive? I don't think so. But an harder share between our Catholic sovereigns :D

4)For most of its, Castilla continues ATl the Spain politics in OTL

I agree but I think there is a chance for Aragon to gain Provence and Languedoc...
 
I agree but I think there is a chance for Aragon to gain Provence and Languedoc...

If your POD is "no marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella" then there is no way for that happening. Aragon was just too weak and dependend too much on Castilian power to make any foreign adventure. Heck, without Castile they would not be able to secure their own holdings in Italy, and much less conquer new territories. For Aragon conquering territories in Southern France you need a POD before the Black Death.
 
If your POD is "no marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella" then there is no way for that happening. Aragon was just too weak and dependend too much on Castilian power to make any foreign adventure. Heck, without Castile they would not be able to secure their own holdings in Italy, and much less conquer new territories. For Aragon conquering territories in Southern France you need a POD before the Black Death.

But I think there is still a possibility but it's less that 90%
 
If your POD is "no marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella" then there is no way for that happening. Aragon was just too weak and dependend too much on Castilian power to make any foreign adventure. Heck, without Castile they would not be able to secure their own holdings in Italy, and much less conquer new territories. For Aragon conquering territories in Southern France you need a POD before the Black Death.

4)For most of its, Castilla continues ATl the Spain politics in OTL

If the POD is no marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella as Gonzaga sugest I doubt that a lot. Without that marriage, in first place, probably we have not war of Castilian succesion or, of we still have it, Isabella is probably doomed without aragonese help, so probably Juana is the queen. That also change certain things in the inner power games among the castilian nobility, however after all Henry IV still have a lot of ennemies wich could try something after his death, but well, that's another story. Without the marriage between Isabella and Ferdinand, the future dinastic exchanges are butterflied, so probably we have not an Habsburg in the castilian throne and no Carlos I. Without an Habsburg, Castile doesn't care about the Reformation, or at least has not OTL commitment in the imperial affairs, maybe even preventing castilian implication in the counter-reform. Another interesting possibility of exploration is the future of jews and muslims in Castile and Aragon in TTL. In general, I foresee a very different religious prospect and very different foreing politics in Hispania in TTL. So, Castilian politics in TTL would be very different to spanish politics in OTL. OTOH, the american revenues, if Columbus still sails for Castile, combined with the absence of war of the Comunidades (so, a more powerful and active urban elite) could have an interesting outcome, perhaps with a marked rivalry between the high nobility and the cities affecting the internal affairs of the kingdom.

Regarding Aragon and "Occitania", personally, I think that after Muret, the aragoneses had no option there anymore.
 
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If the POD is no marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella as Gonzaga sugest I doubt that a lot. Without that marriage, in first place, probably we have not war of Castilian succesion or, of we still have it, Isabella is probably doomed without aragonese help, so probably Juana is the queen. That also change certain things in the inner power games among the castilian nobility, however after all Henry IV still have a lot of ennemies wich could try something after his death, but well, that's another story. Without the marriage between Isabella and Ferdinand, the future dinastic exchanges are butterflied, so probably we have not an Habsburg in the castilian throne and no Carlos I. Without an Habsburg, Castile doesn't care about the Reformation, or at least has not OTL commitment in the imperial affairs, maybe even preventing castilian implication in the counter-reform. Another interesting possibility of exploration is the future of jews and muslims in Castile and Aragon in TTL. In general, I foresee a very different religious prospect and very different foreing politics in Hispania in TTL. So, Castilian politics in TTL would be very different to spanish politics in OTL. OTOH, the american revenues, if Columbus still sails for Castile, combined with the absence of war of the Comunidades (so, a more powerful and active urban elite) could have an interesting outcome, perhaps with a marked rivalry between the high nobility and the cities affecting the internal affairs of the kingdom.

Regarding Aragon and "Occitania", personally, I think that after Muret, the aragoneses had no option there anymore.
Perhaps Aragon,Navarra and Foix will merge instead..
 
[B said:
Niko Malaka][/B]Regarding Aragon and "Occitania", personally, I think that after Muret, the aragoneses had no option there anymore.

Depends. Of course, Aragon cannot just invade southern kingdom of France, saying "hey buddy, i'm came to annex the mens who talk a language very close to mine".

But, if Aragon has a competent mediterranean politic, he can retake Provenca, and uses a "thalassocracy" power to, or make french harbours in Lengadoc useless, or (but at best) annex them.

But, and i agree with you, not western Lengadoc or Gasconha for priorities, critically in the two/three centuries after the PoD
 
Depends. Of course, Aragon cannot just invade southern kingdom of France, saying "hey buddy, i'm came to annex the mens who talk a language very close to mine".

But, if Aragon has a competent mediterranean politic, he can retake Provenca, and uses a "thalassocracy" power to, or make french harbours in Lengadoc useless, or (but at best) annex them.

But, and i agree with you, not western Lengadoc or Gasconha for priorities, critically in the two/three centuries after the PoD

But I think it is better for Aragon to merge with Foix and Navarra first.
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Columbus yet. The Catholic monarchs were the ones who sent him out, hired him. If they are not in Union, will Castilla still send him? Or will no one sail for another few decades for the new world?
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Columbus yet. The Catholic monarchs were the ones who sent him out, hired him. If they are not in Union, will Castilla still send him? Or will no one sail for another few decades for the new world?

The problem is that we don't have a clear POD to know if Columbus still exists ITTL. But assuming that the POD is around the age of Isabella and Ferdinand, it depends on: a) where they still married and lost the conflict with Juana over the Castilian crown; b) Isabella was married to someone else but still defeated Juana.

If A, then Juana is queen and her husband is the Portuguese king. Considering that IOTL the Portuguese were more concerned about find the route around Africa, we can assume that the new monarchs wouldn't be interested in hiring a sailor that wants to go to a complete different direction. Of course, IOTL Colombus almost convinced John II of Portugal (who ITTL would be brother of an eventual king of Castile born from Juana and Afonso V) to hire him, but then Bartolomeu Dias came back from the Cape of Good Hope, proving that ships could go around Africa, and the king gave up the idea.

If B, then probably Isabella still has reasons to finance such travel, unless other alternate concerns involving Aragon or economic problems make this impossible.
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Columbus yet. The Catholic monarchs were the ones who sent him out, hired him. If they are not in Union, will Castilla still send him? Or will no one sail for another few decades for the new world?

It would delay the discovery of america.
 
The problem is that we don't have a clear POD to know if Columbus still exists ITTL. But assuming that the POD is around the age of Isabella and Ferdinand, it depends on: a) where they still married and lost the conflict with Juana over the Castilian crown; b) Isabella was married to someone else but still defeated Juana.

If A, then Juana is queen and her husband is the Portuguese king. Considering that IOTL the Portuguese were more concerned about find the route around Africa, we can assume that the new monarchs wouldn't be interested in hiring a sailor that wants to go to a complete different direction. Of course, IOTL Colombus almost convinced John II of Portugal (who ITTL would be brother of an eventual king of Castile born from Juana and Afonso V) to hire him, but then Bartolomeu Dias came back from the Cape of Good Hope, proving that ships could go around Africa, and the king gave up the idea.

If B, then probably Isabella still has reasons to finance such travel, unless other alternate concerns involving Aragon or economic problems make this impossible.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Columbus yet. The Catholic monarchs were the ones who sent him out, hired him. If they are not in Union, will Castilla still send him? Or will no one sail for another few decades for the new world?

But I think it is better for Aragon to merge with Foix and Navarra first.

Well, there is another possible POD to make possible the union between the Crown of Aragon, Navarra and Foix, disolve the personal union between Castille and Aragon and still have Columbus as in OTL. If Germaine de Foix and Ferdinand have a heir (a heir living more than some hours, I mean) the crown of Castile should go to Juana "the Mad" and sons and the crown of Aragon goes to Germaines' son after the death of Ferdinand.
In that case, Germianes' son could be also heir of Navarre and Foix, but only if the things happen as in OTL regarding Ferdinand's campaign in Navarra, and I have doubts about it. In first place, I don't know of the castilians would support Ferdinands' ambitions over Navarra knowing that the throne of Navarre will go to another crown. And without the castilian troops, Ferdinand has more difficulties, with France still pissed off. In second place, Juana or Charles V could press a claim over the aragonese throne...and win. Anyway, in this scenario, Columbus voyages are not altered.

Originally posted by LSCatilina

Depends. Of course, Aragon cannot just invade southern kingdom of France, saying "hey buddy, i'm came to annex the mens who talk a language very close to mine".

But, if Aragon has a competent mediterranean politic, he can retake Provenca, and uses a "thalassocracy" power to, or make french harbours in Lengadoc useless, or (but at best) annex them.

But, and i agree with you, not western Lengadoc or Gasconha for priorities, critically in the two/three centuries after the PoD

Oh yes, in long-term it could be possible with a smart aragonese politic. But even in that case they should face great challenges. They must keep southern Italy without castilian help. Also, they should face, another time without castilian help, at least the french and the ottomans wich will be a great and constant threat for that aragonese thalassocracy.
 
Well, there is another possible POD to make possible the union between the Crown of Aragon, Navarra and Foix, disolve the personal union between Castille and Aragon and still have Columbus as in OTL. If Germaine de Foix and Ferdinand have a heir (a heir living more than some hours, I mean) the crown of Castile should go to Juana "the Mad" and sons and the crown of Aragon goes to Germaines' son after the death of Ferdinand.
In that case, Germianes' son could be also heir of Navarre and Foix, but only if the things happen as in OTL regarding Ferdinand's campaign in Navarra, and I have doubts about it. In first place, I don't know of the castilians would support Ferdinands' ambitions over Navarra knowing that the throne of Navarre will go to another crown. And without the castilian troops, Ferdinand has more difficulties, with France still pissed off. In second place, Juana or Charles V could press a claim over the aragonese throne...and win. Anyway, in this scenario, Columbus voyages are not altered.

Sure, I forgot about Ferdinand and Germaine. However, in order to have them inheriting the whole of Navarre and Foix you need to exclude completely the support for Germaine's cousin Catherine of Navarre, who under the tradition rules of succession had a higher claim than Germaine.
 
Well, there is another possible POD to make possible the union between the Crown of Aragon, Navarra and Foix, disolve the personal union between Castille and Aragon and still have Columbus as in OTL. If Germaine de Foix and Ferdinand have a heir (a heir living more than some hours, I mean) the crown of Castile should go to Juana "the Mad" and sons and the crown of Aragon goes to Germaines' son after the death of Ferdinand.
In that case, Germianes' son could be also heir of Navarre and Foix, but only if the things happen as in OTL regarding Ferdinand's campaign in Navarra, and I have doubts about it. In first place, I don't know of the castilians would support Ferdinands' ambitions over Navarra knowing that the throne of Navarre will go to another crown. And without the castilian troops, Ferdinand has more difficulties, with France still pissed off. In second place, Juana or Charles V could press a claim over the aragonese throne...and win. Anyway, in this scenario, Columbus voyages are not altered.
Yep but the stronger POD is to prevent Isabelle from marrying the king of Aragon but it might make Isabel marry the king of France which will make Joan of Portugal the Heiress.
 
Sure, I forgot about Ferdinand and Germaine. However, in order to have them inheriting the whole of Navarre and Foix you need to exclude completely the support for Germaine's cousin Catherine of Navarre, who under the tradition rules of succession had a higher claim than Germaine.

yep,i agree
 
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