Ideal thought: Islam never forms, the Arabs are never united, The Byzantines defeat the Arabs at Yarmouk, whatever. The Arab conquest just dosnt get off the ground somehow, and Roman rule of Syria, Palestine and Egypt continues for centuries more. Lets also say that the Arabs are also unable to topple the Sassanians, ether. So, what are the linguistic consequences? Could Arabic replace the Aramaic and Coptic languages in these regions peacefully? Or would they likely still predominate? Is it possible that creeping Hellenization in the Byzantine Empire could eventually result in the extinction of Semitic languages in Syria and Palestine and Coptic in Egypt?
Arab Conquest Prevented: Linguistic Consequences
- Thread starter Hermanubis
- Start date
Well, there was Arab immigration into the region pre-Arab conquest, IIRC. However, I think if the Greek-using Byzantine government remains in place and the native Coptic-speaking populace remains in positions, it seems unlikely that anyone would change languages to Arabic.
Or Berber. Ot depends on how the ongoing history of the region plays out, and I don't think the Latin speakers stood much of a chance without much help from Italy or Spain. The Romans won't care if their subjects speak Latin or Berber.
Arabic is still going to have an impact because the population dynamic is still there, and so is the military reality. But it isn't likely to become the dominant 'high' language of the Middle East. Rather, perhaps, something broadly similar to the way Germanic languages have influenced Romance ones.
What about the Arabs' future? Are they going to convert to Christianity? An autocephalous Arab Orthodox church would hold interesting prospects for the future of an Arab literary culture more strongly influenced by Greek.
IMO there is a good chance that Aramaic will stay the lingua franca of big chunks of the Mideast, with Coptic dominating Egypt. Beyond that - what are your plans for the Sassanids? Personally, I suspect their goose is cooked soon-ish, but without the Arab conquest much of their area might end up speaking Turkish.
Deleted member 5719
There are some very interesting Latin grave inscriptions in Leptis Magna, the Latin is absolutely shocking (I think they're 5th century, but could be 50 years either side). Coastal Tripoitania and Tunis already had a latin Lingua Franca used by Punic/Carthaginian, Greek and Berber speakers, but I've seen no evidence of Latin as a native language (3rd century inscriptions at Sabratha are bilingual with Punic, St Augustine wasn't a native Latin speaker).
So, after the vandal conquest, the importance of Latin was already decreasing, probably to the point where it was merely a liturgical language. Without Arabic, the coastal Maghreb would be Berber speaking, Tunisia Punic, the Sahara Tuareg and Western Libya Greek/Lybic.
However, I find it difficult to believe that without Islam there would be no Arab conquests. The movement of Bedouin Arab tribes into settled territories and into desert areas appropriate for their cultural economy was analagous to the invasions of Steppe nomads in Europe, it would have happened anyway, but without Islam it would have been less organised.
So maybe Arabic would have spread to areas of Egypt, Sudan and Libya (though not urban centres) but almost certainly no further.
Malta would be different
Of course there's also the knock-on effect - the Arabs displaced others by their conquests, so would these people be displaced now, or do the displacing, or remain ?
For example, would Spain remain Visigothic, or would perhaps the Franks expand into it? Either way has consequences for the languages spoken there
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Of course there's also the knock-on effect - the Arabs displaced others by their conquests, so would these people be displaced now, or do the displacing, or remain ?
For example, would Spain remain Visigothic, or would perhaps the Franks expand into it? Either way has consequences for the languages spoken there
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Germaniac
Donor
I highly doubt that the Arabs, without the unifier of Islam, would be able to take control or even estabilish themselves in Egypt. With its Extremely high Coptic Population it is unlikely, unless the arabs convert, that Arabs will play a significant role there.
It would be interesting though, Coptic Arabs?
It would be interesting though, Coptic Arabs?
There would be probably a language named "Spanish", but certainly there wouldn't be any Castilian nor any of the other languages spoken today in the Iberian Peninsula (except Basque).
Germaniac
Donor
much closer to Italian I think, which will be most likely much the same. Greek Becomes a much more common language, and Constantinople remains the World's Capital of commerce, Diplomacy, and knowledge. Sorry Paris, but Constantinople will be the City in this TL. Most likely Greek also remains the Language of Diplomacy, as well.
Why would Turkish replace Persian here, when Persian survived the Arab conquest OTL?
I'd think Arabic would be more likely to infiltrate Iraq first, as there is a history of Semitic languages from the south replacing the dominate language of Iraq via migrations.
You know the general Maltese population (and me too when I went to primary and most of secondary school there) had it as an article of faith that they retained a Semitic language right through the Roman and Byzantine years and in fact all the way until today.
Naturally the truth seems to be that it's really a mix between Tunisian Arabic and Siculo-Arabic, but there could be something in that, no?
People were largely speaking Lybio-Punic in the countryside in Tunisia even in the 4th and 5th centuries, and whatever they speak in Tunisia and Sicily, Malta will be somewhere in between.
Given his name is "Augustine", his father's is "Patricius" and his mother's "Monica", all Latin names, why do you say that he wasn't a native Latin speaker? Certainly, from what I can see, evidence suggests he was fluent in Punic, but that doesn't mean that was his first language.
There's a good chance Persian will remain in use in the core territory (though IIRC the safavids had something to do with that), but I don't think it can retain paramountcy beyond that without the power of the Sassanids to push it. Of course, Turkish was pretty much tongue in cheek, but there is a good chance that Central Asian nomads will do their thing and without an Arabic-dominated religion to convert to, the linguistic map of Mesopotamia, Eastern Anatolia and the Caspian Sea coast could look very different.
Deleted member 5719
I suspect you're right, but I didn't want to post it coz Iraq's a bit outside my baliwick.
Deleted member 5719
Hmm, I have an idea - how would a Catalan Malta work?
The same as OTL Malta, except the food would be worse and people would pay for their own drinks instead of buying rounds.