Apples and Oranges

Ofaloaf - Are those two big-ass states in Germany (the big Protestant one and the big Catholic one), or just two regions that you can't be bothered to divide up? ;)
 
Yeah, I couldn't find all the borders for the states, so I just made 'em big arm-waving expanses. :eek:

Here's a map of Europe in 1547... the closest I could think of to the early 17th centuary without going post-Westphalia...

central_europe_1547.jpg
 
It's been less than a less than a month, which means it's not dead yet!

Warning: The article varies in what language is used for place names and the like- sometimes German is used, sometimes English is used, and sometimes the native tongue is used. Derp.


June 1618- Varasd, in Royal Hungary, is taken over by rebel Protestants.

1619- Very little fighting occurs this year, as Austria is plagued with internal rebellions, Sweden-Poland is consolidating its gains in northern Germany, and the League of Ostend powers withdraw to recuperate and plan for the next year.

Spring 1619- Major rebellion in Bohemia is quashed, but small revolts continue to pop up across the kingdom.

May 1619 – October 1621- Prince Edward of Scotland, Ireland, and England travels to continental Europe, spending much time at universities in Paris and Antwerp chasing skirts. However, he does spend a little (influential) time paying attention to academics and major political players of France and the Netherlands.

July 26th, 1619- Danish forces land on Oeland Island in the Baltic and capture Borgholm castle.

December 23rd, 1619- Duke John Sigismund of Bradenburg and Prussia dies. His son George William immediately inherits Brandenburg, but protests by Prussian Junkers to King Sigismund delay his investiture with the Duchy of Prussia.

1620- Genoan envoys lobby the Spanish court to permit the Italian state greater freedom in financial matters, requesting that Genoa be permitted to loan other states money (at much higher interest rates, of course) and allow foreign states to invest in Genoan enterprises to a much greater extent. The king takes his time considering the requests, but eventually allows Genoa to do so on the condition that it reaffirms its loyalty to the Spanish crown.

November 24th, 1620- The Truce of Valladoid brings the war to a close temporarily.

1621- With the support of the Prussian nobility and Sweden-Poland recently at war with Brandenburg, King Sigismund III rejects Duke George William of Brandenburg’s investiture, and incorporates Prussia into Poland.

March 1621- King Philip III of Spain and II of Portugal dies. His nephew, Duarte Habsburg-Braganza, is crowned King at the age of 31.

Spring 1622- Fighting breaks out again, this time in Lorraine. Denmark makes a separate treaty with Sweden, returning Oeland Island for an end to hostilities between the two powers. However, Denmark continues to fight with Bavaria in the Germanies while Sweden consolidates her gains in Pomerania.

September 17, 1623- A Danish army, reinforced with Netherlander skirmishers and several units of cavalry from Gascony decisively defeats an Imperial army near Fulda.

December 1623- Kőszeg, in Royal Hungary, is taken over by rebel forces.

April 1st, 1624- King John I/II of Scotland, Ireland, and England dies. Mary Stuart’s niece Arbella Stuart accedes to the throne as Queen Arbella I Stuart of Scotland, Ireland, and England, at the age of 47.

March 5th, 1625- Prince Edward announces his conversion to Protestantism from the Catholic faith, causing many arguments to break out between him and his mother in private, although Arbella never disowns him- he is too important to the throne, and Protestant nobles would gladly rally to his cause to overthrow Arbella and install him as King instead.

March 6th, 1625- The Ottoman Empire declares war on Habsburg Austria, invades Royal Hungary. Envoys of the various powers involved in the struggle in the Germanies meet in Augsburg.

May 17th, 1626- The 1626 Peace of Augsburg is signed, ending the Seventeen Years War.

Its main tenets are as follows:
-The 1555 Peace of Augsburg is reaffirmed, allowing individual rulers to determine the religion of their own states as they like (as long as they like Catholicism, Lutheranism, or Calvinism).
-Calvinism is officially recognized and made legal.
-Swedish and Danish expansions into Germany are officially recognized
-Sweden-Poland’s gains in Pomerania are officially recognized, incorporating the Duchy of Stettin and the Bishopric of Kammin. The incorporation of the Duchy of Prussia into Poland is accepted by Brandenburg in exchange for their gains elsewhere.
-Danish gains are also recognized- Dithmarschen is taken from Holstein, and Hadeln is annexed, giving Denmark a much larger presence along the Elbe river.
-Brandenburg’s claim to the territories of the former Duke of Julich-Cleves-Berg is proclaimed the legal one, and so gains all the Duke’s former territories.
-The Palatinate is divided due to the questionable actions of the Elector of the Rhenish Palatinate who, during the war, had encouraged the Protestant rebels in both Bohemia and Hungary. The Upper Palatinate is split off from the Electorate and incorporated into Bavaria, which also receives a new electoral vote.
-France receives control of the Bishoprics of Verdun, Toul, and Strasbourg, although they are to retain a great deal of autonomy due to France’s current Protestant leanings. Metz remains independent through the influence of Spain, who has been acting as a neutral mediator in negotiations.

August 18th, 1627- King Sigismund III of Sweden and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth passes away. His son, Måns, succeeds him to the throne of Sweden, aged 25.

Spring 1628- King Måns I of Sweden is elected King of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

April 2nd, 1628- Maurice of Orange passes away in Breda. His reign has seen the central Netherlander government gain much power over the individual provinces, and the Stadtholder gain more power over the States-General.

[FONT=&quot]October 1631- Queen Arbella I of Scotland, Ireland, and England suffers a sudden stroke and expires before proper medical care can be provided. Her Protestant son, Edward, is crowned King Edward I/IV of Scotland, Ireland, and England (addressed at some points as “King of the United Isles,” “King of the British Isles,” “King of the United Kingdoms,” and “King of Britain” during the coronation ceremony) at the age of 34.


Map, with Susanoist tendencies. The white outline in Hungary is the extent of the Protestant rebellion, and the colored outlines of some nations indicates their vassalage/boot-licking to the color used. Arm-waving is involved in Germany.

[/FONT]

Europe_1631c.png
 
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How close is the relationship between Poland and Sweden becoming in this TL?

They've almost turned the Baltic into a Sedish-Polish lake. All that's left are a tiny bit of Russia and basically Denmark.
 
Were the rebellions in Britain successful in expelling Catholic/Spanish rule? With Spain distracted on the continent and no legitimate King on the throne I can't really see why they wouldn't.
 
You know, this may sound improper, but I think I just made love to that map.:D:eek:
I'm not quite certain how to take that.
How close is the relationship between Poland and Sweden becoming in this TL?

They've almost turned the Baltic into a Sedish-Polish lake. All that's left are a tiny bit of Russia and basically Denmark.
Oh, relations between the two are much better right now ITTL, but there's certainly still Swedes and Poles suspicious of each other. Mind you, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth still elect their kings- if the Vasas end up with a few too many mistakes, then they're outta there.
Were the rebellions in Britain successful in expelling Catholic/Spanish rule? With Spain distracted on the continent and no legitimate King on the throne I can't really see why they wouldn't.
The Catholic monarchs had a few things going for them at that point:

1. Elizabeth Tudor is dead, childless.

2. The Stuarts still have a legitimate claim to the throne. Although John II isn't really Stuart except by marriage, Arbella still has a legitimate claim to the throne through Mary's will and her family's relation to Henry VII.

3. By the time of Mary's death, certainly some nobles had converted to Catholicsm and created stronger bases of support for the Catholic Stuarts. Mary had, during her reign, treated Protestantism across England and Scotland much like she had previously as ruler of Scotland- trying to be as friendly and unmenacing as possible to the powerful Protestant nobles at home while at the same time tossing enough bones to neighboring Catholic powers (Spain) to keep them satisfied. John would've been more strongly Pro-Catholic, but his reign was relatively short.

4. The Stuarts still had plenty of loyal troops to call upon.


I swear to god I'll update this eventually, but I've got finals coming up so...
 
The Catholic monarchs had a few things going for them at that point:

1. Elizabeth Tudor is dead, childless.

This dosen't really help the Catholic monarchs at all. It just means that all the great magnates think they can place their own candidate on the throne.

2. The Stuarts still have a legitimate claim to the throne. Although John II isn't really Stuart except by marriage, Arbella still has a legitimate claim to the throne through Mary's will and her family's relation to Henry VII.

The will's of Queens count for little in the face of men's ambition. More importantly, as I say above, many of the other magnates will advance other, possibly superior claims.

3. By the time of Mary's death, certainly some nobles had converted to Catholicsm and created stronger bases of support for the Catholic Stuarts. Mary had, during her reign, treated Protestantism across England and Scotland much like she had previously as ruler of Scotland- trying to be as friendly and unmenacing as possible to the powerful Protestant nobles at home while at the same time tossing enough bones to neighboring Catholic powers (Spain) to keep them satisfied. John would've been more strongly Pro-Catholic, but his reign was relatively short.

The point is that religion is only the icing on the cake. The real issue is resentment of foreign dominance and personal ambition. England was very lucky OTL to avoid the Wars of Religion to the degree it did, and in this circumstance I'm sure they'd flare up again. Catholicism will be associated with, well, basically betrayal of your country even more than OTL. Sure, people will pretend to convert back for political reasons, but it'll be renounced quickly enough.

4. The Stuarts still had plenty of loyal troops to call upon.

That many? There would have been tremendous anti-Spanish/anti-Catholic setiment. Remember that the Stuarts will be seen very much as foreign puppets, which will have sapped much of their legitimacy.
 
This dosen't really help the Catholic monarchs at all. It just means that all the great magnates think they can place their own candidate on the throne.
That's true enough, but what I kind of was trying to get at with Elizabeth dead is that there's no strong central rallying point for the rebelling magnates- they'll all be pushing for their own candidates, yes, but there won't be one central figure to unify them and make them a large enough threat to dethrone the Stuarts totally.
The will's of Queens count for little in the face of men's ambition. More importantly, as I say above, many of the other magnates will advance other, possibly superior claims.
Who's got a superior claim? Lord knows enough nobles were advancing claims during Elizabeth's reign- it's kind of like say that the 2008 campaign will put McCain under scrutiny and discover all this dirt on him, when that already happened back in 2000. Everybody already knows what's out there. Been there, advanced the claims already, lost.
The point is that religion is only the icing on the cake. The real issue is resentment of foreign dominance and personal ambition. England was very lucky OTL to avoid the Wars of Religion to the degree it did, and in this circumstance I'm sure they'd flare up again. Catholicism will be associated with, well, basically betrayal of your country even more than OTL. Sure, people will pretend to convert back for political reasons, but it'll be renounced quickly enough.
Catholicism will be associated more with betraying England by Protestants, and likely the more radical ones at that. The Catholics- and their numbers ought to start growing again under Stuart rule, though they'll likely still be a minority- certainly won't see things the same way, and just see it as the return of 'proper' rule over England and Scotland. I agree with you though that Wars of Religion ought to be flaring up-- I guess I should include more of that in the timeline proper.
That many? There would have been tremendous anti-Spanish/anti-Catholic sentiment. Remember that the Stuarts will be seen very much as foreign puppets, which will have sapped much of their legitimacy.
Again, mainly by rebellious Protestants. And while Spanish arms totally helped the Stuarts gain the English throne, the Scots did their fair share of fighting too, and the Spanish prensence was relatively subdued between the capture of London and the assumption of rule by Queen Mary. Rebelling nobles will emphasize the point, but Spanish influence on the crown isn't going to be so obvious to most commoners.


Maybe I'll go back and do a Mk. II of the TL with revisions sometime much later.
 
That's true enough, but what I kind of was trying to get at with Elizabeth dead is that there's no strong central rallying point for the rebelling magnates- they'll all be pushing for their own candidates, yes, but there won't be one central figure to unify them and make them a large enough threat to dethrone the Stuarts totally.

The lesson of English history seems to be that the magnates can usually wait until after they've defeated the crown to start the squabbling.

Catholicism will be associated more with betraying England by Protestants, and likely the more radical ones at that. The Catholics- and their numbers ought to start growing again under Stuart rule, though they'll likely still be a minority- certainly won't see things the same way, and just see it as the return of 'proper' rule over England and Scotland. I agree with you though that Wars of Religion ought to be flaring up-- I guess I should include more of that in the timeline proper.
I doubt this. Even English Catholics would still resent foreign dominance, and they would be becoming less rather than more common, as their neighbors burn them out for collaboration.

Again, mainly by rebellious Protestants. And while Spanish arms totally helped the Stuarts gain the English throne, the Scots did their fair share of fighting too, and the Spanish prensence was relatively subdued between the capture of London and the assumption of rule by Queen Mary.
No better for them to be seen as Scottish than Spanish. Indeed, without massive, continuing Spanish intervention, similar to in Holland, I don't see how the Stuart monarchy would have survived to this point.

Rebelling nobles will emphasize the point, but Spanish influence on the crown isn't going to be so obvious to most commoners.
We're too early for this to really matter in England. The commoners will still feel to much loyalty to the magnates and gentry, rather than the crown, for them to be major actors in events.
 
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