Anyone interested on a spanish invasion of Japan?

Imagine a alternative history scenario in which there is no protestant reformation and the spanish empire "fix" their economy, and began to expand into asia, first by taking some islands like borneu and Peleliu, then maybe advance into Vietnam, Thailand and finally decide to invade Japan

How would be this "uber" spanish invasion of Japan? And if they succed, how much time would it take to crush the power of the clans and convert them to christianity?
 
I would say your stretching plausibility there. The Phillippines was only really conquered as a diverse set of islands with I believe very few areas being all that developed. If the Spanish colonization Phillippines went as in OTL colonization only started in 1565. I'd go more in depth about Japan, and why it would be a really difficult thing to but I need a date you want to work with first.
 
You'd have to play an Ireland-type game wherein Spain allies with certain daimyos against others and slowly takes the country in this manner. It's not very likely.
 
You'd have to play an Ireland-type game wherein Spain allies with certain daimyos against others and slowly takes the country in this manner. It's not very likely.

I don't think even that would work, the only Christian Daimyo worth his salt was Otomo Yoshishige, and even then he couldn't really do much the Mori who defeated the Christian-friendly Ouchi were strong on the western end of Honshu close to the Otomo, eastwards and southwards would mean a possible coalition from the south and the Ryuzoji in the east.

They could go for Nobunaga, granted Nobunaga would have used the help for all it's worth, but was an atheist who had no desire to be anyone's servant, but it's only 5 years after Okehazama and Nobunaga still only has the Owari province.
 
I'd prefer converting Japan to Christianity by selling firearms to friendly daimyos. More plausible too. :p

Note that I didn't say directly coopting the daimyos into the Spanish system, because that's just skirting ASB.
 
There is no date, the PoD is no protestant reformation and no collapse of the spanish economy, so it can be at any moment after 1517, let's say that the church accept some of Luther's ideals
 
There is no date, the PoD is no protestant reformation and no collapse of the Spanish economy, so it can be at any moment after 1517, let's say that the church accept some of Luther's ideals

Okay while my knowledge base is more in the 1550's of Japan I'd say the same still applies invading Japan would require a considerable amount of Spanish troops in the 10s and possibly 100 thousandths. Battles of the Sengoku period tended to have lots more troops than in Europe at the concurrent time, also the Sengoku saw nonstop warfare between numerous clans that Spanish troops would have to fight hardened veterans and experienced commanders at every turn, in an era where depending on the region even the monks were fierce warriors skilled with many weapons even eventually firearms.

The only strengths the Spanish are they have ocean-going ships that can beat anything the Japanese can field with most of their naval being coastal and boarding actions common, and possible access to better horses. Still, the Spanish would need to fight through several Islands in terrain that's filled with hills and mountains and few plains with plenty of castles.
 
Okay while my knowledge base is more in the 1550's of Japan I'd say the same still applies invading Japan would require a considerable amount of Spanish troops in the 10s and possibly 100 thousandths. Battles of the Sengoku period tended to have lots more troops than in Europe at the concurrent time, also the Sengoku saw nonstop warfare between numerous clans that Spanish troops would have to fight hardened veterans and experienced commanders at every turn, in an era where depending on the region even the monks were fierce warriors skilled with many weapons even eventually firearms.

The only strengths the Spanish are they have ocean-going ships that can beat anything the Japanese can field with most of their naval being coastal and boarding actions common, and possible access to better horses. Still, the Spanish would need to fight through several Islands in terrain that's filled with hills and mountains and few plains with plenty of castles.

The spanish also have the entire resources of america and parts of asia, they are very capable of fielding over 100 thousand men for this campaign, in this scenario we have also butterflied their economical problems, so we can expect a effective naval blockade and a lot of naval artillery support in battles for coastal cities like Edo
 
How will a few butterflies take out the economic issues the Spanish had of inflation and stagnation caused by the glut of new world gold?
Not to mention, how are the Spanish planning on getting 100,000 soldiers across 3 oceans, especially if they intend to bring cavalry? Moving armies that far in the sailing era was a logistical nightmare, and once they get there they'll be facing off against a military system that is their equal in numbers, experience and training, and will have a home ground advantage. The Spanish won't be able to rely on disease, internal division and culture shock to do their work for them like they could with the Aztecs and Incas. They'll have to fight a conventional war with reinforcements tens of thousands of miles away, with only Christian Diamyos for support-that is, if the Dutch or Portuguese don't try to throw a monkey wrench somehow.
 
The spanish also have the entire resources of america and parts of asia, they are very capable of fielding over 100 thousand men for this campaign, in this scenario we have also butterflied their economical problems, so we can expect a effective naval blockade and a lot of naval artillery support in battles for coastal cities like Edo

The problem is you can't simply expect for the Spanish to able to field that large an army and navy in one campaign, it's not resources but the sheer logistical scale a massive invasion and blockade with 15th-century technology. There's also a very big difference what the Spanish had on a map and what they actually had. By 1517 the Spanish only had parts of the Caribbean and wouldn't have Mexico and 1521 and the Inca Empire at least until the 1530's this is not counting the fact that it would take the Spanish a time long to fully control those areas.

Lets say for the sake of this POD say Spain has from its conquests from the Aztec and Incan Empires, the two Sicilies, and the Spanish Netherlands Spain proper and even the Philippines. The sheer amount of men they would have to draw would make it completely unfeasible, first, it would leave a lot of land undefended, second the only way they of to Japan would be the long way across the Cape of Good Hope into Africa. The Spanish would just better off with trade, an invasion would be damn near impossible to pull off. As for Naval Artillery one, Edo is only a small castle the capital is in Kyoto. Second, the Spanish would have to fight province through province besieging numerous castles, that only were near the coast. On top of Spain would technically be fighting hundreds of de-facto-political entities because feudal Japan was so fragmented there is no quick victory in this scenario.
 
The spanish also have the entire resources of america and parts of asia, they are very capable of fielding over 100 thousand men for this campaign, in this scenario we have also butterflied their economical problems, so we can expect a effective naval blockade and a lot of naval artillery support in battles for coastal cities like Edo

The Spanish can't field an army of that size in the Americas until the 18th century at the absolute earliest, let alone Asia. Can someone tell me if the Spanish ever had over 100,000 men in one army in the New World? Because I'm pretty confident the answer is a no.
 
The problem is you can't simply expect for the Spanish to able to field that large an army and navy in one campaign, it's not resources but the sheer logistical scale a massive invasion and blockade with 15th-century technology. There's also a very big difference what the Spanish had on a map and what they actually had. By 1517 the Spanish only had parts of the Caribbean and wouldn't have Mexico and 1521 and the Inca Empire at least until the 1530's this is not counting the fact that it would take the Spanish a time long to fully control those areas.

Lets say for the sake of this POD say Spain has from its conquests from the Aztec and Incan Empires, the two Sicilies, and the Spanish Netherlands Spain proper and even the Philippines. The sheer amount of men they would have to draw would make it completely unfeasible, first, it would leave a lot of land undefended, second the only way they of to Japan would be the long way across the Cape of Good Hope into Africa. The Spanish would just better off with trade, an invasion would be damn near impossible to pull off. As for Naval Artillery one, Edo is only a small castle the capital is in Kyoto. Second, the Spanish would have to fight province through province besieging numerous castles, that only were near the coast. On top of Spain would technically be fighting hundreds of de-facto-political entities because feudal Japan was so fragmented there is no quick victory in this scenario.

The Spanish can't field an army of that size in the Americas until the 18th century at the absolute earliest, let alone Asia. Can someone tell me if the Spanish ever had over 100,000 men in one army in the New World? Because I'm pretty confident the answer is a no.

*rant begins*
My God, didn't you readed what I wrote above?
*rant ends*

Well, this can happens in any date after 1517, you can have the spanish invading Japan in the mid-late 19th century you want
 
*rant begins*
My God, didn't you readed what I wrote above?
*rant ends*

Well, this can happens in any date after 1517, you can have the spanish invading Japan in the mid-late 19th century you want

I readed, and the point stands. You can make Spain as strong as you like, their ability to ship enough men over to invade Japan unless they were to do something nonsensical and insane, like settle Australia in the 16th century and dedicate mass amounts of resources to settling the continent completely. Fast-forward three hundred years and, sure, I guess that they may be able to draft enough men to try and invade Japan from Australia at that point, by transporting the entirety of their navy to Australia, because for some reason Spain's only care in the world is conquering Japan. You can blockade Japan, sure, that's not hard, but invade? Good luck.
 
There is no date, the PoD is no protestant reformation and no collapse of the spanish economy, so it can be at any moment after 1517, let's say that the church accept some of Luther's ideals

Eh. You'd do better with a more effective Counter-Reformation giving the Jesuits power. That would help with tolerance of Confucian rituals in Far Eastern Christianity.

Spain is not going to expend the vast majority of its power to take islands two oceans away. Even with the Philippines, they only put on four small expeditions and mostly concentrated on trade and conversion, not even being able to project their power south thanks to the Moro sultanates and their Dutch backers.

Spain, given more wealth and more time, is more likely to focus on building infrastructure in the core of their empire: Spain itself, and its American holdings.
 
Besides the logistical hell of a Spanish invasion of Japan, the fact is that Japan just isn't worth much for the cost required to conquer it. Need raw materials? Hey look, a whole continent of raw materials waiting to be harvested! Need a trade post? Taiwan is a far better bet. God told you to? Well, it doesn't seem like you're done converting your colonies either.

The fact is, you need a casus belli worth sending a force to conquer Japan, and one that justifies the huge cost required to take it. That's why, to date, only two people have ever tried to invade Japan. The first (the Yuan) did it just because they have a massive ego that demanded conquest of China's old tributaries. The other (America) needed to put a stop to Japan's rampage in Asia and avenge Pearl Harbour (and fortunately managed to get a surrender before occupying).
 
I think you would need a Japan with a much longer warring states period and no unification. Without a central government able to suppress Christianity throughout all of Japan, there is much more likely scenario where various domains in Japan become heavily Christian with Christian daimyos willing to work with the Spanish. Then at some point, the Spanish are invited in as allies, and the Spanish end up taking direct control. They then are able to use "their" head daimyo to conquer the rest of Japan, who then acknowledges the Spanish king as some kind of suzerain, perhaps creating some kind of "constitutional" gimcrack that preserves the dignity of the Japanese Emperor, while allowing complete Spanish control of foreign policy and opening up Japan to Spanish traders and missionaries.

In the long run, I can't see a 16th or 17th century Spain able to control Japan outright. There has to be sufficient autonomy or control that the Japanese elites want to curry favor with Spain and allow Spanish influence, but which rewards them lavishly as well - which means domestic political control. Japan is simply too populous and too developed in its own way. Whatever technical advantages the Spanish have is not sufficient to overcome the difficulties by Japan's distance.
 
I think you would need a Japan with a much longer warring states period and no unification. Without a central government able to suppress Christianity throughout all of Japan, there is much more likely scenario where various domains in Japan become heavily Christian with Christian daimyos willing to work with the Spanish. Then at some point, the Spanish are invited in as allies, and the Spanish end up taking direct control. They then are able to use "their" head daimyo to conquer the rest of Japan, who then acknowledges the Spanish king as some kind of suzerain, perhaps creating some kind of "constitutional" gimcrack that preserves the dignity of the Japanese Emperor, while allowing complete Spanish control of foreign policy and opening up Japan to Spanish traders and missionaries.

In the long run, I can't see a 16th or 17th century Spain able to control Japan outright. There has to be sufficient autonomy or control that the Japanese elites want to curry favor with Spain and allow Spanish influence, but which rewards them lavishly as well - which means domestic political control. Japan is simply too populous and too developed in its own way. Whatever technical advantages the Spanish have is not sufficient to overcome the difficulties by Japan's distance.

I don't think so at least far as creation Christian states go. First Christianity only really spread to the Western Daimyo where traders and missionaries came, and again as I've mentioned the most you could get is maybe the Ouchi (well technically ruled by another member of the Otomo) as the most powerful Chrisitan Daimyo. Still, they weren't all that strong and well you to place a clear date considering the unstable situation of the Sengoku period. Second, you don't a central authority to prevent Christianity from spreading both daimyo and politically powerful Buddhist temples can a put a stop just as well, even under the later Ashikaga where their influence was only symbolic and small.

I don't see daimyo requesting foreign troop going over well, or even happening, it would send a bad message that they aren't powerful enough to fight on their own, and need foreigners who aren't all impressive considering the Japanese would mass produce their own firearms. As for foreign trade considering the Daimyo were more nations unto themselves at least with the Shogun decreeing whether or not to trade with China, so as long Spanish ships could make it to Japan it's not like there's not a market for their goods

If you at least want Spanish trade with Japan then it would simple as not having a situation like the Toyotomi, conquered by force but had no legitimacy, or Tokugawa legitimacy but had to rule through as system of keeping the Daimyo and the population controlled, who wins out in their place is the bigger question.
 
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