Anyone else find most political or alternate history games bias?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Books and Media' started by Modern Imperialism, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me a lot of the political and alternate history games are bias in their views especially paradox ones. They also seem to want to avoid many topics more so when talking about games that take place closer to the present.
     
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  2. Odinson Plus Ultra!

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    I feel like the second Wolfenstein is, due to the fact that Grace keeps saying how all white Americans gave up and collaborated with the Nazis, helped put them in death camps, yaddayadda. Then the white communists who opposed the war are the only ones who think black people should be given equal rights.
     
  3. Planet of Hats Mad Prophet of Doom Donor

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    This is a little unspecific. What bias do you see in these games?
     
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  4. The Tai-Pan The Pagemaster

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    What do you mean exactly?
     
  5. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    I could be any general biases yall see but Odison gave a good example I agree with. In a lot of games I often see favoritism towards the left or a disregard for the more brutal aspects of humanity and history. For example, look at the reform system in Victoria 2 or the things they keep out of Hearts of Iron or what Odison point out about Wolfstein but the Nazis are supposed to be cartoon like villains I give it a past on many things. I believe most systems have pros and cons in some way or form but many games don't reflect that well. They often favor certain stuff more within the game. If the Nazis took over America somehow like in Wolfstein resistance would be a lot higher especially when you conside terrian and the population here. Even right wing whites would hate Nazis taking over the US. The Klan and Neo-Nazis even now don't often get along. Civilization is a other example when it comes to the leaders they often pick.
     
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  6. The Tai-Pan The Pagemaster

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    Do we really want concentration camps in our fun 4x game?
     
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  7. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    I personally prefer full details and the whole story. I also don't think it is good to sugarcoat history especially in entertainment. Let's say you play Nazi germany in hearts of iron. You should have the option to implement the final solution or not with the in effects taking place. Or if your not playing Germany the ai does it 90 percent of the time or something like that. Look at crusader kings they have no issue putting the more brutal aspects of the time in there because it is more distant from recent times. But this point is probably due to public image issues and possible censorship more then biases.
     
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  8. The Tai-Pan The Pagemaster

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    It is a game, not history.
     
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  9. saluto Big Boi

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    Great. Now we have a Holocaust simulator. HOI4 becomes the favourite game of neo-Nazi’s, and paradox gets attacked so viciously in the press that they lose all investment and their stocks crash. The company goes bust and we don’t get any more of their games.

    This is why they don’t have things like the Holocaust in the game.
     
  10. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    In total war you can raze cities or the entire world. The only difference between HOI4 and total war and crusader kings is timespan. You can include brutal realities in something that takes place past recent memory but if it is more current people don't like seeing it.
     
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  11. saluto Big Boi

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    Timespan matters. The Holocaust was within living memory. What sort of person would click the final solution button? Why even include it? It wouldn’t add anything enjoyable to the game.

    If realism matters so much you won’t allow Germany to invade Britain, or Japan to succeed in conquering China.
     
  12. TheKutKu Well-Known Member

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    You can't disagree with that, the holocaust was special by its intensity and systematic nature, but in the end a death is a death, you can't compare one and another, it's the loss of a living human being who had a familly and thoughts no matter the circumstances around it. I remember playing some Rome total war game that i calculated killed something like 4 million people, and i'm sure on my longer Medieval 2 game that number was easily surpassed.

    I still don't think it's necessary to include stuff like the final solution or human experimentation programs in hoi4, mainly because it wasn't that important to the actual war effort and also for obvious PR reasons. But i think saying that they shouldn't be added because they are too brutal is the wrong way to defend it.
     
  13. saluto Big Boi

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    The difference being people remember the family who died in the Holocaust, and don’t remember their ancestors who died in the mongol invasion.
     
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  14. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    Modern conflicts have more deaths by raw numbers because there are more people now and technology has improved. But if you look at percentage when compared to the total population ancient conflicts had higher numbers. Genocide isn't uncommon in human history. The Romans, Mongols, and other groups in the past often committed it.
     
  15. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    What about nukes? Games have those and there are still people in Japan that experienced or had family involved in that. We also have games where the Nazis win and committed more crimes. The genocides, ethnic cleansing, and forced population movements are a big part of the 1900s you can't ignore. It is why we have modern Europe borders.
     
  16. saluto Big Boi

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    Simply put: there isn’t an outcry about it. If there was a big outcry about putting nukes in the game then they’d have another look at it. I’d argue that there isn’t one because the number of people who remember relatives dying in nuclear war is far smaller than the Holocaust, and also because atomic war is a type of war that played a pivotal role ending the second would war.

    In contrast the Holocaust is a large part of the identity of many Jewish people today, it’s seen as one of the greatest human evils to have ever occurred, and it’s inclusion wouldn’t actually change the core gameplay whereas atomic warfare does.

    HOI4 is a strategic war game. It’s not a 1940’s simulator. It’s certinaly not trying to be realistic. It’s odd that you would demand a Holocaust button in the name of realism, but don’t have an issue with the absurd focus trees that allow the US to invade all of non-democratic Latin America, or for the USSR to go Trotskyist, or Germany to invite the Monarchy back.
     
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  17. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    I do have a few problems with the focus trees but that is unrelated to this. But after winning in Hearts of Iron you make the borders of Europe which was heavily effected by ethnic cleansing in our world. Also the holoucast and ethnic cleansing played a big part on how the war went out east. If the Nazis were not treating all Slavs like sub humans or wasting resources killing unarmed civilians things would go a lot different. For example, Ukrainians and other people or groups in the USSR would be more inclined to help the Nazis if it wasn't for the racial stuff. They would also have more resources and men for the war. The game has Stalin purges and issues he had in Ukrainian which are still sensitive topics in that region.
     
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  18. saluto Big Boi

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    Are you arguing that the Holocaust should be in the game, or that adding it to the game shouldn’t be unpopular?

    The focus tree issue isn’t unrelated. If you want the game to be realistic that’s where you should start your criticism, and then afterwards you could focus on dozens of other issues that are genuinely unrealistic, before you get to events that aren’t acknowledged but don’t have a direct impact on the gameplay. If you really have to you can just accept that the Holocaust is going on in the background. Why do you need some sort of gameplay element based around it?

    The Stalinist events aren’t ones you can control. They’re basically click through. I’m not necessarily sure they should be highlighted, but I can see why they would be while the Holocaust isn’t. You’re unlikely to get people playing the game just so they can carry out the Great Purge. In contrast a Holocaust button would guarantee the game becomes a neo-nazi cult symbol.
     
  19. Modern Imperialism Well-Known Member

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    I just like history and video games. I think history and video games should include as much depth and detail as possible. I can deal with some unrealistic things being in it but I don't think anything should be excluded from a game or history especially if it actually happened. You can have the unrealistic elements without excluding stuff that actually happened and took place. This is why I don't address the restoring the Kaiserriech in the game as much. Also consider this, many people who play these games are the most exposure they get to this history often times. If they aren't given the context or true detail they get a water down romanticized version focused on only the combat which arguably you can't separate from the other stuff either. You can do this in a tasteful way. I noticed in my classes about this era many people look at or focus on the battles and conventional war aspects of this era while not giving any attention to or ignoring the deeper and darker roots of this that should be addressed.
     
  20. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

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    Dec 18, 2016
    She is a proudly true black supremacist and a feminist. Of course, she's going to have a few bad things to say about the white man and considering the racism that was propped up by the whites in the US before the Nazis invaded, I'm not surprised that she holds so much hatred against white men.
     
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