Any TLs about a surviving Pannonia? How do you think this region would have turned out?

The territory that roughly corresponds to present-day Transdanubian Hungary (the Western part of the country) was part of the Roman Empire and called Pannonia. On the Hungarian website "gyakorikerdesek.hu" I have read about an ATL that describes a fictional continuation of this state as a Neo-Latin country like Italy and Spain, that kept many of the traditions of its Roman past. How plausible do you think is this ATL, and how would you imagine a continued Pannonia?

https://www.gyakorikerdesek.hu/poli...zaghoz-pannoniahoz-ha-igy-alakult-volna-a-tor


Let's say that we would still exist, because most of the ancestors of present-day Hungarians are not Asians, but Slavs, Germanics, and other European peoples, so you yourself would continue to exist even in this alternate world.

The conquering Magyars never reach the Carpathian Basin, even the Huns avoid it.

Under the rule of Emperor Traian, Pannonia Province flourishes to a greater degree, than in our world, and in later periods, fewer Barbarian invaders get here.

The Roman Empire still falls, but Pannonia remains as a sovereign country, as the other Neo-Latin countries did.

By the 21st century Pannonia is the Neo-Latin country that has best preserved the culture of Ancient Rome. Although Christianity was forced upon the people in the Middle Ages, by our present time many returned to Roman Polytheism. They believe in Jupiter, Mars, Minerva, Bacchus and other gods. Saturnalia is a more popular holiday than Christmas.

In warm weather, many people walk around in togas, Homosexuality is acceptable, and there are many great feasts and parties with wine.

The walls of houses are decorated with sex scenes, street lamp poles are topped with a Phallus.

Through the times, Latin was replaced by the Pannon-Romanian language which sounds like a mixture of Romanian and Portuguese with a heavy Slavic influence, we speak this. In more educated circles, in universities, and courts, being fluent in Classical Latin is a tradition that still holds.

The capital of Pannonia is Kestei ("Castellum" in Classical Latin, "Keszthely" in our world), there is even a local Colosseum and Circus Maximus here.

Our flag consists of a blue and green stripe, with a stylized Pelso (Lake Balaton) in the middle.

Our anthem and language sounds like this:



How would you like if we lived like this?

It appears that the OP on the forum was influenced by reading about the Keszthely Culture, a small state that existed in part of Roman Pannonia after the fall of the Empire.

What do you think about this ATL? Does it seem plausible?
 
While a surviving Pannonia is possible, I'm very sceptical about the above ATL. There's very little chance of Roman Paganism surviving there, togas probably won't be popular (they weren't in Rome), and... dicks everywhere?
 
Wow. Just wow.

I began this post by saying "it's entierly implausible", but as I progressed, I realized it went far beyond this.

The conquering Magyars never reach the Carpathian Basin, even the Huns avoid it.
First, it should be Huns never reach the Carpathian Basin, even the Magyars avoid it.

Then, it completly misses the geostrategical position of Illyricum in general and Pannonia in particular : it was the soft underbelly of Romania, due to the absence of real natural obstacles and its relative underpopulated nature (it didn't went any better with time : the region between Danube and Tisza was sometimes called "Desolation" by carolingian writers). The crushing majority of all the significant Barbarian incursions in Romania up to Italy passed trough Pannonia without a second tought, from Marcomanni to Radogast's Goths, in spite of the region being particularily militarized since the IInd century.

Assuming that Barbarians would just "miss" it comes as an act of faith without too much regard for historical realities.

Under the rule of Emperor Traian, Pannonia Province flourishes to a greater degree, than in our world, and in later periods, fewer Barbarian invaders get here.
So not only it flourishes to a greater degree, out of the blue (again, safe colonies mostly motivated by the need to increase military presence, while possible mineral interests were preent as well,as in Dacia), but Barbarians avoid it? I does strikes me as contradictory.

The Roman Empire still falls, but Pannonia remains as a sovereign country, as the other Neo-Latin countries did.
Ah, the problem is that it didn't happened as such in Roman west : rather Barbarians (heavily and growingly romanized) took the imperium, and created polities out of the fall of the roman state. While it did followed roughly the ancient limits, nobodies argues that Francia was litterally the new sovereign form of Roman Gaul for instance, but its political evolution.
Virtually none of the post-Roman state entities (Syagrius, Paulus, Vincentius, Victorius, Sidonius, Desiderius, etc. I could name other Roman dukes and leaders of the late Vth century) survived as independent pole, but went (and had to eventually) to join up with Barbarians.

Why would a Pannonia, even on steroids, magically avoided by Barbarians (especially given the strategical importance of Pannonia, you had a large army there, when Barbarians formed a large part of late Roman army), would avoid this? IOTL, it was generally let to peoples as Heruli (which served more or elss as a post-federated state for Ostrogoths) that could form a post-imperial state (while still as much dependent from Italy that Roman Pannonia was) but as described? No.

By the 21st century Pannonia is the Neo-Latin country that has best preserved the culture of Ancient Rome.
So, a backwater region, with barely enough colonies to maintain a military recruitment, and that was regularily raided over Barbarians (ah, sorry, Other-Worldy Flittermouses took care of this) somehow is the beacon for Ist century Roman (as in the city of Rome) culture.

Although Christianity was forced upon the people in the Middle Ages
Do I really need to comment that?

by our present time many returned to Roman Polytheism. They believe in Jupiter, Mars, Minerva, Bacchus and other gods. Saturnalia is a more popular holiday than Christmas.
Ah, I see : it's a Neo-Pagan of strong timeline. It explains a lot of things.

In warm weather, many people walk around in togas,
In another dimension, TLs about survival of the British Empire have description of Brittanian denizens with bowler hats over their wighs, with all clothes made of the purest tweed.

Homosexuality is acceptable
Wait, I tought it was like ancient Rome, where "if I'm on top, it doesn't really count"?

The walls of houses are decorated with sex scenes, street lamp poles are topped with a Phallus.
The author needs some cold shower.

Through the times, Latin was replaced by the Pannon-Romanian language which sounds like a mixture of Romanian and Portuguese
Let's not forget the touch of Sardinian and the influence of Africano-Romance.

with a heavy Slavic influence
I tought there was no Barbarian influence to speak off, due to the Ring of Doriath? You know the TL is bad when even the author get confused after a few lines.

In more educated circles, in universities, and courts, being fluent in Classical Latin is a tradition that still holds.
Exactly as in every other Romance country!

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It's bad. I mean, it's incredibly bad. Worst of Allthistory.wikia-bad.

In other cases, I would have said that I'm sorry for the author, that there's some works and effort put on it. But there is not any of this : it's barely coherent, biased to the point the TL is almost self-aware, based on assumptions of semi-concious toughts of misunderstanding about ramblings on Roman pseudo-history.
 
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I feel as though that the person who wrote this did so in an exaggerated fashion. I mean, for Pete's sake, the anthem is just the Portuguese version of the Major Man theme from the Powerpuff Girls! There is a discussion worth having here about a possible surviving Pannonia, as it is a concept worth exploring, but with that joke of a timeline, there's no way one can seriously discuss it without looking up and catching a glimpse of it.
 
I think that the thread on the site was a half-serious joke post or even a drunk post (sometimes happens as there is not a lot of moderation there), but I've never seen any timelines that feature a surviving Pannonia, at least it wasn't the usual "Why did Trianon happen? Why did we lose WW2? Why did the Russians invade?" stuff so it was a kind of novelty for me :)

Do you know any serious TLs that feature the territory of Roman Pannonia remaining as a country?
 
Do you know any serious TLs that feature the territory of Roman Pannonia remaining as a country?
Not that I know personally, no.

That said, a post-imperial Romance Pannonia would be hard to serious treat.

I mentioned several features that made it different from, say, post-imperial Gaul and Spain (to not say post-imperial Italy or Africa), and somehow closer to sub-Roman Britain.
The main issues would be, IMO that Pannonia was underpopulated, compared to provinces as Gaul or Italy, and probably didn't much more than the two million of inhabitants, at best, in the Late Imperial period, with Sirmium being a fairly small city compared to other late imperial capitals, and still a major urban center for the region. The situation continued well beyond Late Antiquity : Pannonian plain was described as a solitude, a deserted place, by Carolingians.
Most of the interest on the region was geostrategical as the Danubian limes in Pannonia was a strategical vulnerability for the empire (sort of Late Antiquity equivalent of the Fulda Gap), which was compensated with troops (as the Rhine limes was fairly stable, most of western Roman forces were fixed on Illyricum) and Barbarian recruitment. You did have some mineral interests, but Pannonia had definitely a "frontier" aspect comparable to what existed in most of Britain and Dacia.

I could see, for various reasons, a Barbarian foedus (possibly evolving as a Romano-Barbarian kingdom) being firmly established in Pannonia,
but with an important caveat.
It would be somehow a "bastard" result, with a distinct Barbarian identity (while romanized) at the margin of post-imperial classical Romania (closeness of Italy, mostly), that would either grow more romanized with time but trough political absorbtion of neighbouring powers would it be a surviving Roman Empire, or a Romano-Barbarian kingdom, either a Barbarian identity perpetuating itself (less as in Anglo-Saxon England, tough, than what happened with Alemani).

Your best chance, IMO, would be with a surviving Heruli Kingdom in Pannonia, as dominated either by Ostrogoths or (Eastern) Romans. How long would it last is anybody guess, giving that Avar-Slavic pressure would be hard to butterfly away (it would require, IMO, significant changes in Central Asia, especially for what matter Gokturk Khaganate), but that would be as a good start you could get.
 
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