Any one up for a Germany wank again?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date
Define plausible. One of my biggest problems with plausability is, just like the Germans themselves, the TL writers ignore logistics.
 

General Zod

Banned
Different WW2 leader leads to more efficient, non-Nazi Germany.

My "a shot that changed Europe" is just of that kind. Hitler is assassinated in late 1938, and as a result Germany has been diverging from extremist OTL Nazi policies more and more. True, it is still technically ruled by a Nazi leader and by the Nazi party, but the TL is still quite young (late 1940 at this moment), not yet time enough (and it's wartime anyway) for the political framework to evolve so much as to cast away the Nazi roots completely, but it's definitely going there in the coming years and decades. But mostly it is window-dressing, the leader and the regime could be more accurately described as Neo-Wlihelmine fascist-authoritarian by this point.
 

Susano

Banned
Eh, after 1900.... teher are better chances to wank Germany prior to 1900 ;)
And Nazi Germany Victorious - yeah, techncially it would be a German ywank, but it would kidna suck for Germany, too, to be under sucha totalitarian regime, so how much Germany wank that really is...
 
I recall reading the memoirs of WWII night-fighter ace Wing-Commander "Cats Eyes" Cunningham.
In them, he claimed that, as a young pilot, he had been approached sometime during the late-1930s by a Jewish group who wanted him to assassinate Hitler.
He said they offered him £100,000 to fly a light aircraft over a parade in Berlin and drop an explosive device onto Hitler's open car.
The bribe was worth several million pounds in today's money.
Whilst he thought this feasible, Cunningham regarded the proposal as cold-blooded murder - plus he didn't like the idea of spending the rest of his days dodging the Gestapo!
Had he not refused, history would indeed have been different...
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm thinking along the lines of Hitler getting killed in the Munich Putsch and another nationalist becomes Chancellor. Max Bauer is not assassinated (does not contract small pox), due to butterflies and is able to get involved with this replacement movement. This means greater contact with china, which proves to be a better testing ground for weapons and a great trade partner. Germany also get Austria in 1934, for reasons that are too long to explain here. Germany also does not get involved in the spanish civil war, but get more involved in China, which means Japan is by herself.
Italy also forms an independent power group with Spain, Portugal, Romania and later others.
France and Poland become tighter and due to other conflicts, Britain becomes a reluctant partner in the entente. WW2 happens later, with butterflies and other suprises. Anyone interested?
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm going to try to keep it in the realm of 7 in terms of realistic events, but I do have a tendency to get carried away :).
I may make up a character or two, but over all I think so far what I have worked out in my head is plausible, maybe not probable though.
 
I'm going to try to keep it in the realm of 7 in terms of realistic events, but I do have a tendency to get carried away :).
I may make up a character or two, but over all I think so far what I have worked out in my head is plausible, maybe not probable though.

hmm.... this sounds intresting.
Hit Us with your best shot.
 
Ok you wand Hitler death in 1938
but Hitler was one oft the Incompetent leaders leader in History

Him kill, he can be replace by a competent dangerous leaders ! :eek:

but who will be Hitler Successor ?
normally, the successor layout by Political Constitution of Deutschen Reich,
the Nazi leaders will ignored the Constitution, and start a Civil war

Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring (more Incompetent as Hitler)
Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler (dangerous fanatic )
SS-Gruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich (extrem dangerous fanatic)
Reichsminister Joseph Goebbels (dangerous fanatic)
Stellvertreter des Führers Rudolf Heß ( fanatic, Insane ?)
Sekretär des Führers Martin Bormann (Opportunist)
(Non of them had the "Charisma" of Hitler)

it is possible that Rudolf Heß will claim the Position because he was "Deputy to Adolf Hitler"
and use the SA-trupps
Martin Bormann as ex-Secretary of Hitler will losse his Power, but join Rudolf Heß.
will Hermann Göring claime also the Position
he hab Elite Trupps (SA-Standarte „Feldherrnhalle“, Police Regiment „General Göring“)
And the dangerous Trio Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, Joseph Goebbels
with Waffen-SS and Propaganda Ministry


how gona responding the german people on this ?
 

Deleted member 1487

it begins...

Alright, things start changing in 1923 when Hitler is killed during the Munich Putsch. The nazis are discredited and collapse in on themselves due to infighting. This clears the field for other organizations, and a fictional man named Heinrich Fuchs rises within Stahlhelm for his criticisms of the ineffectual government and leadership within the rightwing. His rise really begins later in the 1920's when he meets Max Bauer at a rally after a speech he gives in which he criticizes the government for not seeking to redress the treaty of Versailles and lack of success that the nationalist movements have had at the polls. This contact allows his access to some of the important industrialists who get behind him with financing and social support. They believe that they can use him to take power and run the country, much like Hitler IOTL.
The major difference between Fuchs and Hitler is that Fuchs, while strong willed, does not behave irrationally bullheaded like Hitler did. Fuchs reached the rank of Captain and had some formal education, which Hitler lacked and made him insecure in his power relations. That won't be an issue here. Fuchs also lacks a lot of the prejudices of the Nazis, so he won't be overtly antisemetic and has more faith in the civilising power of German Kultur. He still is a strident anti-communist, a supporter of eugenics, and hates the French.

The rise of the German National Front (DNF, Fuch's party), really begins after 1929 and due to the extra money available to him, manages to unite much of the nationalist movement into his party. They get their first major success in 1932, which gives Fuchs the Chancellorship. He, with the help of Bauer and his associates form the former armaments board, establish a rearmaments brain trust that will focus on how to provide the resources to redevelop the German military. Bauer still has a lot of contacts with China, which he is able to make official by persueding Fuchs to establish trade relations with Chiang kai-shek. Germany ends cooperation with the Soviet Union and switches to China, which generiously allows Germany to conduct secret military development and training. The trade partnership will, over the years, allow German industry to develop experience and production lines for armaments production, as the Chinese will need lots of help in their wars. They are also a large source of critical industrial resources, which allows Germany to obtain these resources, like tungsten, at below market value in great quantities.

The early years of Germany under the DNF are primarily focussed on job creation and cementing the hold of the DNF on the Reichstag. Fuchs reasons that for Germany to have enough money to rearm, she needs to have a functioning economy. Large amounts of money are spent on work programs, like the construction of the Autobahn, the construction of airport/airbases, and later an automobile company by the name of Volkswagen (owned and run by the German government). Coupled with work programs and natural growth, the economy began to grow again. This helped to cement the DNF in the Reichstag and gain them a greater plurality than ever before.
 

Deleted member 1487

The relationship with China is not a full alliance, rather it is more one of expanded trade and military cooperation. Germany is looking to gain Chinese resources, as they are the largest producer of several crucial industrial metals and other resources in the world (tungsten being one example).
Several other advantages, all military, are also gained. Industry gains knowledge of making military aircraft and tanks, which then can get tested in combat against other warlords or the communists. Later when the Japanese come, which will be a bit earlier here as they will want to strike before Germany can help China modernize too much, the Germans will have a Condor legion set up that will have a greater presence in China than that legion did OTL in Spain. It will also include a Heer presence as well. I am thinking that this will also replace the American presence, with knock on effects later.

Also the earlier annexation of Austria will speed up military training, as that effectively eliminates the 100,000 man army stipulation of the treaty of Versailles, so instead of the significant problems in military training that the German army had OTL, they will be more up to speed. A larger starting cadre of trainers for the expanding German army helps loads. My research shows that the Austrian army was over 50,000 by this time, which is not too shabby.
Also as the DNF regime is focussing on job creation and economic expansion at the expense of rearmament at first, the German economy expands quicker and rearmament will have greater funding and resources dedicated to it later on. This also makes Fuchs incredibly popular, as he is the one credited with fixing the economy. The DNF is then able to capture more seats in the Reichstag, which further cements his power over the nation.
As Fuchs is not very radical, rather more socially conservative, he is well liked by the majority of the people and there is far less desent to his government than with the Nazis. Foreign governments are not as worried and the best scientists stay in Germany, as they are not being persecuted. However, France is not a fan, as they see him strengthening Germany and see a show down coming. Britain is more positive overall, as they can do business with him and the newly reinvigorated Germany. Also, as OTL there is a latent feeling that Germany was unfairly treated after the war, and see Fuchs as just balancing books rather than being threatening. We shall see what happens when the Sudeten becomes an issue...
The other point that I wanted to make was the creation of Volkswagen. Fuchs sees the creation of a strong auto industry as critical for Germany, both economically as well as militarily. This will be an important part of his economic recovery scheme and will have important effects down the line.

I have not really talked about Italy yet, but they will be critical to the geopolitical situation later on, but I am going to save that for a later post. Please give me any feed back you can.
 
the Germans will have a Condor legion set up that will have a greater presence in China than that legion did OTL in Spain. It will also include a Heer presence as well. I am thinking that this will also replace the American presence, with knock on effects later.

like China win over communists rebels under Mao ?

note on German China trade, who do transport works ?
per Ship, Train ?
Ship has two problems: the Suez Canal (england france) and the Panama Canal (USA control)
the Deutsche National Front need good Diplomatic relationships with USA and England-France
otherwise the Canals are closed für German ships and have to take long detour

However, France is not a fan, as they see him strengthening Germany and see a show down coming.
in other words they close the Suez Canal for Germans Ships (reasion for a German-France War ? )

Train similar problem
to get from Germany-China is over the Trans-Siberian Railway and Trans-Manchurian line
that goes big parts over Sovjet union and Stalin give a Anticommunists Germany free Free passage to China ???
(NOTE:
Stalin made the mistake in OTL to understand the NSDAP as a Socalist Politic Party and try to Alliance with them!
in this TL Stalin will NOT try this with the Deutsche National Front )


and there other problems like Single track, diverent Rail gauge in Germany, Poland, USSR, China...

the Volkswagen will look different in this TL as OTL why ?
as Ferdinand Porsche present Adolf Hitler, the first Model of Volkswagen
Hitler was not pleased by the form, takes piece of papier and draw his version
volkswagen+prototype.jpg

picture source (but a diverent version of the story)
http://broomvroom.blogspot.com/2008/02/volkswagen-and-hitler-untold-story.html
webpage about Volkswagen prototype
http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Volkswagen/
 
like China win over communists rebels under Mao ?

note on German China trade, who do transport works ?
per Ship, Train ?
Ship has two problems: the Suez Canal (england france) and the Panama Canal (USA control)
the Deutsche National Front need good Diplomatic relationships with USA and England-France
otherwise the Canals are closed für German ships and have to take long detour


Michel

I think you are wrong here. Britain formally controlled the Suez canal but short of war there were strict limits on interference on traffic through it. Especially merchant ships carrying trade there would be a real storm if someone tried to interfer with that. Can't see Britain trying this without a very good reason for tension with Germany. France did not have the influence on the canal and if it had had such power I can't see it risking it without British support, which would be highly unlikely.

Not sure of any limits on US control of the Panama Canal and whether they could/would have legally interferred with trade through that. Possibly the American members of the board could give some info on that? Given that they generally had good relations with Germany OTL until Hitler started showing how unpleasant he was and that they would have supported aid to China I don't think they would have opposed trade either.

Steve
 
(NOTE:
Stalin made the mistake in OTL to understand the NSDAP as a Socalist Politic Party and try to Alliance with them!
in this TL Stalin will NOT try this with the Deutsche National Front )

Stalin didn't make a mistake of understanding. From 1933 to 1939, the Soviet media portrayed Nazi Germany in EXTREMELY negative light - far more than the Western media. Stalin did believe that a war against Germany was inevitable. He was wrong about the time, that's all.
Then, 1939-1941, the things reverted. Stalin still didn't believe in Hitler being a "socialist comrade-in-arms"; what Stalin did believe in was Realpolitik - that Hitler, busy in the West, won't have the gall and/or the ressources to attack in the East as well. Thus, the purges of officers; Stalin probably planned to built an armed force personally loyal to him, and to attack Nazi Germany after it weakened itself in a war against the West. He miscalulated Hitler's crazyness though.
 
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