Any changes to Timeline-191/Southern Victory

[PsychoNeo]

Harry Turtledove's Southern Victory series is one of my favorite alternate histories. However, there are a few things that I would change about it. For one, I would calm down on the parallelism despite enjoying aspects of it. I would also try to give Mexico a more USSR-like history, at least in origin, like kicking out the monarchy and becoming the first proclaimed socialist state (with a more calm government and not a Stalin hellhole). Lastly, I'd probably change the Freedom Party name to the Dixie Party, based off of OTL's Dixiecrats. Those are just a few I listed, I will probably list more changes during discussion.

What changes would you make to Timeline-191/Southern Victory?

 

[Lalli]

- Lesser paralellism and butterfly killings.
- Write more about Europe.
- Not mnake Freedomites such genocidal maniacs. Not only that it is too similar with nazis but genociding of 1/3 population is just damned impractical since it would take lot of resources and cheap work power.
- Not make GW2 just carbon copy of GW1. Speciality change alliances bit.

 

[PsychoNeo]

- Lesser paralellism and butterfly killings.
- Write more about Europe.
- Not mnake Freedomites such genocidal maniacs. Not only that it is too similar with nazis but genociding of 1/3 population is just damned impractical since it would take lot of resources and cheap work power.
- Not make GW2 just carbon copy of GW1. Speciality change alliances bit.

The Freedomites are meant to be nazis though. It may not make practical sense to kill off 1/3 of a population, but that's just it. It's racism, and racism never makes sense. At the very least, the Freedom Party could've just made slavery legal again.

 

[bguy]

What changes would you make to Timeline-191/Southern Victory?

1. Different casus belli for the Second Mexican War. (I can't see Mexico being willing to sell off two of its states like that, and the Confederates trying to build a transcontinental railroad across Sonora and Chihuahua also seems really implausible. Such a railroad would be incredibly difficult giving the terrain and hostile local population, and I don't see how it could ever be profitable given that Confederate trade with the Pacific was negligible.) As a possible alternative maybe Blaine, upon assuming the presidency, has the US back a military coup in Mexico that sees Porfirio Diaz overthrow the Imperial Mexican government. Longstreet, not willing to see a pro-US government take power in Mexico (which would mean the CSA is surrounded), dispatches an expeditionary force to Mexico to restore the Imperial government. Blaine responds with an ultimatum insisting that the Confederates withdraw their troops from Mexico. Longstreet refuses and the war goes from there.

2. In the First Great War Canada falls by mid-1916. It didn't really make sense that they held out for three years given how badly outnumbered Canada was against the United States, and Canada surrendering in 1916 would help explain how TR was able to win reelection that year and why the Confederates were desperate enough that they were willing to start arming their black population (since they would realize that the defeat of Canada is going to free up hundreds of thousands of additional veteran US troops to come against them.)

3. The Socialists would have been much more successful in getting their domestic agenda enacted. It made no sense that the Socialists, controlling the presidency and both houses of Congress, would let the Democrats filibuster their old age pension and unemployment insurance bills for over a decade. (Realistically the Socialist majority would have abolished the fillibuster by 1923 or 1925 at the absolute latest if the Democrats kept using it to block the Socialist agenda.) Old age pensions, unemployment insurance, farm price supports, public housing, and nationalization of at least some industries (the power companies and maybe the railroads) thus all would have happened during the Sinclair Administration. This would probably soften the impact of the Great Depression.

4. The Pacific War would have been a much bigger deal. (After two whole generations growing up with the Remembrance Ideology, I can't see the US settling for a status quo ante bellum peace.) At a minimum the US would have fought on until they had taken the Philippines. (They need to take something big off Japan, so the American people will l feel like they won, and so Japan will know it was beaten.) This would also set up US vulnerabilty to Featherston being not from appeasement and weakness but from imperial overreach. (And especially since most of the defense budget in the early 30s would have had to go to the Navy and Marines for the fight against Japan.)

5. Agree with Lalli that there shouldn't be any holocaust parallel. It's already stretching plausibility to the breaking point to have the Confederates (a country with 1/3 the population of the US) go toe to toe with the United States for three full books. Having them holding off the US for so long while they are simultaneously trying to exterminate 1/3 of their own population is just ludicrous. (And it's not like you need to have the Confederates go full Nazi to show that they are thoroughly evil. Having Featherston impose an apartheid regime would be much more plausible while still showing the CSA to be a horrific dystopia.)

6. Also agree with Lalli about switching up the alliances from the First Great War. Maybe the Kerensky government survives in Russia. (In TL-191 it should have been obvious by 1917 that the Entente was going to lose the ar, and there certainly wouldn't have been any loans coming to Russia from the United States government, so there's really no logical reason in TL-191 for Kerensky to decide to keep fighting , and if he does have Russia pull out of the war then it might be possible to avoid the Bolshevik coup since IOTL it was Kerensky's insistence on continuing the fight that destroyed all support for his government.) If the Kerensky government does survive then the 1920s could see the US draw close to Russia since both nations are under left wing democratic governments and share a mutual enemy in Japan. Germany would fear Russian revanchism (a democratic Russia is still going to be upset about all the territory it surrendered to Germany in the FGW), so as the US draws closer to Russia that might lead to German reproachment with the British. And thus we might eventually end up with an alliance system of the US, Russia, France (and maybe China) facing off against the CS, Germany, Austro-Hungary, Britain, and Japan. (Which I think would make for a much more even conflict than what we had in the canon storyline.)

I also think the reason for the British entering the Second Mexican War was very implausible. (I can't see the Confederates being willing to give up slavery so easily, and I can't see the British being willing to enter the war on just a promise of emancipation.) Unfortunately, I can't really think of a plausible reason for why Britain would enter that particular conflict, and it's kind of essential to the storyline that they do so since without British intervention the US will win the Second Mexican War and that pretty much short circuits the entire storyline. Thus if anyone has any ideas for a more plausible justification for British intervention, I would certainly be interested in hearing them.

 

[Lalli]

The Freedomites are meant to be nazis though. It may not make practical sense to kill off 1/3 of a population, but that's just it. It's racism, and racism never makes sense. At the very least, the Freedom Party could've just made slavery legal again.

I know that Freedomites were intended to be parallel nazis what is one reason why I would put their genocidal mindset off. Of course they would are still racists and re-allowing of slavery is what I would had done and it would had been more reasonable for them.

 

[kernel]

I also think the reason for the British entering the Second Mexican War was very implausible. (I can't see the Confederates being willing to give up slavery so easily, and I can't see the British being willing to enter the war on just a promise of emancipation.) Unfortunately, I can't really think of a plausible reason for why Britain would enter that particular conflict, and it's kind of essential to the storyline that they do so since without British intervention the US will win the Second Mexican War and that pretty much short circuits the entire storyline. Thus if anyone has any ideas for a more plausible justification for British intervention, I would certainly be interested in hearing them.

If we're going with the military coup idea for the Second Mexican War, perhaps the new Mexican government is heavily indebted to the British, who launch a blockade of Mexico and capture a few key ports to force them to pay up. The Confederacy, which was never friendly with Porfirio Diaz, joins in and invades Mexico's northern states. Blaine issues an ultimatum to both Britain and the Confederacy to withdraw, and with their refusal declares war on both of them, hoping for an easy and quick victory to seize Canada and humiliate the Confederacy.

 

[bguy]

If we're going with the military coup idea for the Second Mexican War, perhaps the new Mexican government is heavily indebted to the British, who launch a blockade of Mexico and capture a few key ports to force them to pay up. The Confederacy, which was never friendly with Porfirio Diaz, joins in and invades Mexico's northern states. Blaine issues an ultimatum to both Britain and the Confederacy to withdraw, and with their refusal declares war on both of them, hoping for an easy and quick victory to seize Canada and humiliate the Confederacy.

That has potential, but would Blaine really think he could beat the British in a fight?

Maybe if we have Blaine first elected in 1876 and How Few Remain opens at the start of his second term. If Blaine spent his first term building up the US military then it would be more plausible that he would believe he could force the British to back down.

 

[kernel]

Another thing I find unrealistic is the Richmond Agreement. There's no way that the US government (socialist or not) would willingly gamble away full fledged states to their sworn enemy.

Post GWI, I would instead have the Confederates cede northern Virginia, Sequoyah, and Houston to the US permenantly (as well as pieces of Arkansas and Sonora) just like in the books. Kentucky, on the other hand, would either continue to be a CS state but under US occupation (sort of like the Rhineland otl), or a temporary mandate of the US with a plescibite set to occur in the future (like the Saar OTL).

The Richmond Agreement would still have US troops withdraw from Kentucky (like OG Southern victory), except they would be withdrawing from official Confederate territory, rather than a US state.

GWII would begin when Featherston asks for plescibites in the former CS territories that are US owned, which is refused by Al Smith, beginning an invasion into US territory on three axes (Texas, Sequoyah, and Virginia).

If we want to create more parallelism, the first few months of the war can be a "phoney" war in which the US fights a defensive war and not much occurs on these three fronts, and Ohio remains lightly guarded as noone thinks that the Confederates will attempt a large scale river crossing. This changes when Operation Blackbeard begins.

The Pacific War could last longer (maybe we can delay its start to 1935 or 36) and "bleed" into the Second Great War, which would explain why the US was unprepared to stop the C.S. invasion of Ohio and why they were willing to compromise with Featherston in the first place

 

[PsychoNeo]

Another thing I find unrealistic is the Richmond Agreement. There's no way that the US government (socialist or not) would willingly gamble away full fledged states to their sworn enemy.

Post GWI, I would instead have the Confederates cede northern Virginia, Sequoyah, and Houston to the US permenantly (as well as pieces of Missouri and Sonora). Kentucky, on the other hand, would either continue to be a CS state but under US occupation (sort of like the Rhineland otl), or a temporary mandate of the US with a plescibite set to occur in the future (like the Saar OTL).

The Richmond Agreement would still have US troops withdraw from Kentucky (like OG Southern victory), except they would be withdrawing from official Confederate territory, rather than a US state.

Missouri was never part of the CSA in the story FYI

 

[kernel]

Missouri was never part of the CSA in the story FYI

whoops, I meant Arkansas

 

[Karl the Writer]

A lot of things surrounding the GW1 really stood out to me when I was reading Walk in Hell and Breakthrough. For one, the fact that the Black Rebellions in the Confederacy seemed to be completely unsupported by the US, despite the fact that its effects were enough to severely impact the course of the Confederate War effort. The sum of the US response to the Red Rebellion seemed to have been a case of shadenfreude and then moving on.

It seems like a massive missed opportunity on the part of both the US and Turtledove to see how the ideology of remembrance, emancipation, and the geopolitics of WW1 could have mixed to create an interesting scenario. IOTL, TR met with several black civil rights leaders during his term as president, only to backtrack on that due to pressure from Southern politicians. It would be interesting if TR made efforts to portray the US as a liberating power to African Americans living in the CSA, making statements in favor of the Red Rebellion (emphasizing their anti Confederate attributes over their Marxist credentials of course) and using it to literally say "and you are lynching Negroes" whenever Germany is criticized for invading Belgium. Maybe form black units with names like the "Jefferson Davis Brigade" or something. They could have also sent cash and weapons over to the Reds.

Another thing; the style of warfare in America. The sheer amount of space in America makes trench warfare impractical. It should be more akin to the Eastern Front, with the US slowly eroding Confederate power as it effectively leverages its superior industrial power over the CSA.

 

[athgtq16129]

Change or outright remove the plot point of Mormons becoming this TL's equivalent of Islamic Terrorists.

 

[PsychoNeo]

Change or outright remove the plot point of Mormons becoming this TL's equivalent of Islamic Terrorists.

Yes sir. The Mormons are the epitome of "How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man!?". The plot about the Mormons really should've been a copy and paste from our timeline. You know, settlers going to Utah and diminishing Mormon influence substantially enough.

 

[kernel]

Another thing; the style of warfare in America. The sheer amount of space in America makes trench warfare impractical. It should be more akin to the Eastern Front, with the US slowly eroding Confederate power as it effectively leverages its superior industrial power over the CSA.

I can see trench warfare occuring in the Potomac and Roanoke Front, but having it in Kentucky, Sequoyah, and Texas was a bit too much.

 

[kernel]

A summary of the changes we have so far (with a few details added in):

Second Mexican War

• After the Confederacy gains Cuba from Spain, Republican James Blaine defeats Democrat Samuel Tilden in 1876 on a platform of containing the CSA. Blaine spends his first term expanding the army and navy, while also militarizing the Great Lakes, which cools relations with Great Britain. He is re-elected in 1880.
• A military coup by Porfirio Diaz deposes Maximilian I in 1881. The new government refuses to recognize the debts of the Second Mexican Empire, so Britain occupies Veracruz while the Confederacy sends an expeditionary force to Northern Mexico. Blaine sends an ultimatum for Britain and the Confederacy to withdraw. When both refuse, Blaine declares war on the CSA and Britain, hoping that his expanded military will win against them both.
• The USA's strategy is to crush the Confederacy by destroying their armies in Kentucky and Northern Virginia, then swing back up and capture Canadian cities to force a British withdrawal. This strategy fails as casualties mount in Louiseville and NoVa.
• The US navy is unable to prevent the Royal Navy and CS Navy from combining their forces, who then go on to blockade and bombard US cities
• After a failed attempt to capture Nova Scotia, the fall of Mexico City to British forces (and the execution of Diaz by Mexican reactionaries), and the capture of Washington DC by the CSA, the USA sues for peace.
• The peace terms are as follows: the USA cedes northern Maine to Britain, and pays indemnities to the CSA. In addition, the CSA gains Sonora and Chihuahua and the Mexican Empire is restored.

The Great War

• The war begins like in the books. The USA's strategy is an inverse of the Second Mexican War, wherein it focuses first on capturing Canada and then moves in for a finishing blow on the CSA
• While the Roanoke, Potomac, and Ontario fronts are defined by trench warfare, the rest of the North American continent has more fluid warfare
• The Red Rebellions are supported heavily by the USA, and cause serious damage to the Confederacy and are only suppressed in late 1916
• Canada falls by 1916, the British evacuate their forces but continue the fight at sea. TR wins against Debs, the election was neck and neck before the fall of Canada
• With hundreds of thousands of freed up troops and the adoption of the barrel, the USA begins hamerring CS forces throughout late 1916 and early 1917, reaching the Potomac in December 1916. In desperation, the CSA begins training and sending black soldiers to the front.
• The 1917 Febuary Revolution in Russia results in a liberal government in power. They quickly sue for peace and are forced to accept humiliating terms, but at least Russia is out of the war and (somewhat) stable
• With Russia out of the war, revolutionary ferver spreads to France as troops rebel. A general strike is called throughout the country. The Germans defeat the French at the a second battle at the Marne and surround Paris. France agrees to an armistice in late March.
• The USA captures Nashville and reaches the Rappahanock in a spring offensive. The Confederates agree to an armistice in April.

The Peace Terms

• European peace terms are like the books
• The CSA cedes Houston and Sequoyah, as well as parts of Virginia and Arkansas to the USA
• The USA is allowed to occupy Kentucky, which is a formal part of the CSA but under USA administration as a bargaining tool to force the CSA to pay reperations
• The USA annexes Canada

The Interwar Era

• A mild recession in 1919 along with labor unrest results in Upton Sinclair winning against Roosevelt
• The Sinclair Administration passes old age pensions and other welfare policies, but slashes the military budget
• Sinclair also ends Confederate reparations when Wade Hampton III is killed, but only does so in exchange for the release of Sylvia Enos
• Hosea Blackford succeeds Sinclair and is able to nationalize industries like Railroads, but loses when the Great depression hits
• In Europe, the Austro-Hungarian empire collapses into several different nations. Russia, Germany, and France compete for influence among these nations.
• A diplomatic switch is occuring, as Britain and Germany become closer while the US and Germany become less friendly. The US is able to improve its relations with actionist France and democratic Russia
• Jake Featherston's Dixie Party comes to power in 1933, and he begins creating an authoritarian government. He slowly removes all rights for the Black population, eventually creating labor camps where he uses black slave labor for manufacturing weapons of war. Confederate industrialization is further supported by British and German investments.
• Featherston also begins increasing Confederate control over Central America and the Caribbean through various interventions, which allows him to test out his army
• the Second Sino Japanese war reults in an increase in American-Japanese tensions. When Japanese weapons are found in the hands of Canadian rebels in 1937, the US declares war and conducts and island hopping campaign. US invades the Philippines in 1939 and is stuck in a stalemate.
• Sensing weakness in the US due to their lackluster performance against Japan, Featherston orders Freedomite militias to begin riots in Kentucky. Al Smith meets Featherston in June 1939 and signs the Richmond Agreement. US troops withdraw from Kentucky, and the CSA does not initially bring troops into the state.
• In December 1939, the CSA remilitarizes Kentucky. With a worsening war against Japan, the US is reluctant to confront Featherston.

The Second Great War

• In Febuary of 1940: Featherston demands that the US hold plescibites in all territory captured by the CSA in GWI. The USA refuses, and so Featherston declares war
• In Europe, Italy annexes South Tyrol from a rump Austria. The web of alliances results in Britain, Germany, and Austria (Central Powers) fighting against France, Italy, and Russia (Radial Powers). The Ottomans and Bulgarians remain neutral.
• Japan and Britain invade French Indochina. The Pacific, North American, and European fronts are now united into a single war.
• The first few months of the North American front are uneventful. The US believes that the war will be defensive, and conducts halfhearted offensives into Texas, Sonora, and Virginia. Sideshow battles occur in the Caribbean and Central America.
• There are not enough troops to spare to fight the Confederacy and Japan at the same time, so Ohio is left lightly guarded as noone believes the CSA will risk a large river crossing. Even if they do, there is confidence that US air power will halt any crossings.
• July 1940: Operation Blackbeard begins with a CSA invasion of Ohio. US air power is ineffective as the CS Air Force destroys most airfields in the Midwest. The CSA cuts straight through Ohio. Al Smith refuses peace.

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Drop the genocide angle entirely. The freedomites can do mass forced labor instead.

 

[Lalli]

A summary of the changes we have so far (with a few details added in):

Second Mexican War

• After the Confederacy gains Cuba from Spain, Republican James Blaine defeats Democrat Samuel Tilden in 1876 on a platform of containing the CSA. Blaine spends his first term expanding the army and navy, while also militarizing the Great Lakes, which cools relations with Great Britain. He is re-elected in 1880.
• A military coup by Porfirio Diaz deposes Maximilian I in 1881. The new government refuses to recognize the debts of the Second Mexican Empire, so Britain occupies Veracruz while the Confederacy sends an expeditionary force to Northern Mexico. Blaine sends an ultimatum for Britain and the Confederacy to withdraw. When both refuse, Blaine declares war on the CSA and Britain, hoping that his expanded military will win against them both.
• The USA's strategy is to crush the Confederacy by destroying their armies in Kentucky and Northern Virginia, then swing back up and capture Canadian cities to force a British withdrawal. This strategy fails as casualties mount in Louiseville and NoVa.
• The US navy is unable to prevent the Royal Navy and CS Navy from combining their forces, who then go on to blockade and bombard US cities
• After a failed attempt to capture Nova Scotia, the fall of Mexico City to British forces (and the execution of Diaz by Mexican reactionaries), and the capture of Washington DC by the CSA, the USA sues for peace.
• The peace terms are as follows: the USA cedes northern Maine to Britain, and pays indemnities to the CSA. In addition, the CSA gains Sonora and Chihuahua and the Mexican Empire is restored.

The Great War

• The war begins like in the books. The USA's strategy is an inverse of the Second Mexican War, wherein it focuses first on capturing Canada and then moves in for a finishing blow on the CSA
• While the Roanoke, Potomac, and Ontario fronts are defined by trench warfare, the rest of the North American continent has more fluid warfare
• The Red Rebellions are supported heavily by the USA, and cause serious damage to the Confederacy and are only suppressed in late 1916
• Canada falls by 1916, the British evacuate their forces but continue the fight at sea. TR wins against Debs, the election was neck and neck before the fall of Canada
• With hundreds of thousands of freed up troops and the adoption of the barrel, the USA begins hamerring CS forces throughout late 1916 and early 1917, reaching the Potomac in December 1916. In desperation, the CSA begins training and sending black soldiers to the front.
• The 1917 Febuary Revolution in Russia results in a liberal government in power. They quickly sue for peace and are forced to accept humiliating terms, but at least Russia is out of the war and (somewhat) stable
• With Russia out of the war, revolutionary ferver spreads to France as troops rebel. A general strike is called throughout the country. The Germans defeat the French at the a second battle at the Marne and surround Paris. France agrees to an armistice in late March.
• The USA captures Nashville and reaches the Rappahanock in a spring offensive. The Confederates agree to an armistice in April.

The Peace Terms

• European peace terms are like the books
• The CSA cedes Houston and Sequoyah, as well as parts of Virginia and Arkansas to the USA
• The USA is allowed to occupy Kentucky, which is a formal part of the CSA but under USA administration as a bargaining tool to force the CSA to pay reperations
• The USA annexes Canada

The Interwar Era

• A mild recession in 1919 along with labor unrest results in Upton Sinclair winning against Roosevelt
• The Sinclair Administration passes old age pensions and other welfare policies, but slashes the military budget
• Sinclair also ends Confederate reparations when Wade Hampton III is killed, but only does so in exchange for the release of Sylvia Enos
• Hosea Blackford succeeds Sinclair and is able to nationalize industries like Railroads, but loses when the Great depression hits
• In Europe, the Austro-Hungarian empire collapses into several different nations. Russia, Germany, and France compete for influence among these nations.
• A diplomatic switch is occuring, as Britain and Germany become closer while the US and Germany become less friendly. The US is able to improve its relations with actionist France and democratic Russia
• Jake Featherston's Dixie Party comes to power in 1933, and he begins creating an authoritarian government. He slowly removes all rights for the Black population, eventually creating labor camps where he uses black slave labor for manufacturing weapons of war. Confederate industrialization is further supported by British and German investments.
• Featherston also begins increasing Confederate control over Central America and the Caribbean through various interventions, which allows him to test out his army
• the Second Sino Japanese war reults in an increase in American-Japanese tensions. When Japanese weapons are found in the hands of Canadian rebels in 1937, the US declares war and conducts and island hopping campaign. US invades the Philippines in 1939 and is stuck in a stalemate.
• Sensing weakness in the US due to their lackluster performance against Japan, Featherston orders Freedomite militias to begin riots in Kentucky. Al Smith meets Featherston in June 1939 and signs the Richmond Agreement. US troops withdraw from Kentucky, and the CSA does not initially bring troops into the state.
• In December 1939, the CSA remilitarizes Kentucky. With a worsening war against Japan, the US is reluctant to confront Featherston.

The Second Great War

• In Febuary of 1940: Featherston demands that the US hold plescibites in all territory captured by the CSA in GWI. The USA refuses, and so Featherston declares war
• In Europe, Italy annexes South Tyrol from a rump Austria. The web of alliances results in Britain, Germany, and Austria (Central Powers) fighting against France, Italy, and Russia (Radial Powers). The Ottomans and Bulgarians remain neutral.
• Japan and Britain invade French Indochina. The Pacific, North American, and European fronts are now united into a single war.
• The first few months of the North American front are uneventful. The US believes that the war will be defensive, and conducts halfhearted offensives into Texas, Sonora, and Virginia. Sideshow battles occur in the Caribbean and Central America.
• There are not enough troops to spare to fight the Confederacy and Japan at the same time, so Ohio is left lightly guarded as noone believes the CSA will risk a large river crossing. Even if they do, there is confidence that US air power will halt any crossings.
• July 1940: Operation Blackbeard begins with a CSA invasion of Ohio. US air power is ineffective as the CS Air Force destroys most airfields in the Midwest. The CSA cuts straight through Ohio. Al Smith refuses peace.

Very good but some things:

- I would too enact some clear plan to Canada like perhaps statehood.
- Perhaps France could actually become more radical leftist nation so it could become more believeable way closer with USA and Russia.
- I feel dissolving of A-H being unnecessary. Books didn't do that and it wasn't inevitable anyway. So keep that as unified.

 

[kernel]

Very good but some things:

- I would too enact some clear plan to Canada like perhaps statehood.
- Perhaps France could actually become more radical leftist nation so it could become more believeable way closer with USA and Russia.
- I feel dissolving of A-H being unnecessary. Books didn't do that and it wasn't inevitable anyway. So keep that as unified.

I agree with your first and third points, but I think having a far-right France join a more leftist USA and Russia for the sake of geopolitics would be interesting. Stranger ideological alignments occured OTL.

 

[PsychoNeo]

A summary of the changes we have so far (with a few details added in):

Second Mexican War

• After the Confederacy gains Cuba from Spain, Republican James Blaine defeats Democrat Samuel Tilden in 1876 on a platform of containing the CSA. Blaine spends his first term expanding the army and navy, while also militarizing the Great Lakes, which cools relations with Great Britain. He is re-elected in 1880.
• A military coup by Porfirio Diaz deposes Maximilian I in 1881. The new government refuses to recognize the debts of the Second Mexican Empire, so Britain occupies Veracruz while the Confederacy sends an expeditionary force to Northern Mexico. Blaine sends an ultimatum for Britain and the Confederacy to withdraw. When both refuse, Blaine declares war on the CSA and Britain, hoping that his expanded military will win against them both.
• The USA's strategy is to crush the Confederacy by destroying their armies in Kentucky and Northern Virginia, then swing back up and capture Canadian cities to force a British withdrawal. This strategy fails as casualties mount in Louiseville and NoVa.
• The US navy is unable to prevent the Royal Navy and CS Navy from combining their forces, who then go on to blockade and bombard US cities
• After a failed attempt to capture Nova Scotia, the fall of Mexico City to British forces (and the execution of Diaz by Mexican reactionaries), and the capture of Washington DC by the CSA, the USA sues for peace.
• The peace terms are as follows: the USA cedes northern Maine to Britain, and pays indemnities to the CSA. In addition, the CSA gains Sonora and Chihuahua and the Mexican Empire is restored.

The Great War

• The war begins like in the books. The USA's strategy is an inverse of the Second Mexican War, wherein it focuses first on capturing Canada and then moves in for a finishing blow on the CSA
• While the Roanoke, Potomac, and Ontario fronts are defined by trench warfare, the rest of the North American continent has more fluid warfare
• The Red Rebellions are supported heavily by the USA, and cause serious damage to the Confederacy and are only suppressed in late 1916
• Canada falls by 1916, the British evacuate their forces but continue the fight at sea. TR wins against Debs, the election was neck and neck before the fall of Canada
• With hundreds of thousands of freed up troops and the adoption of the barrel, the USA begins hamerring CS forces throughout late 1916 and early 1917, reaching the Potomac in December 1916. In desperation, the CSA begins training and sending black soldiers to the front.
• The 1917 Febuary Revolution in Russia results in a liberal government in power. They quickly sue for peace and are forced to accept humiliating terms, but at least Russia is out of the war and (somewhat) stable
• With Russia out of the war, revolutionary ferver spreads to France as troops rebel. A general strike is called throughout the country. The Germans defeat the French at the a second battle at the Marne and surround Paris. France agrees to an armistice in late March.
• The USA captures Nashville and reaches the Rappahanock in a spring offensive. The Confederates agree to an armistice in April.

The Peace Terms

• European peace terms are like the books
• The CSA cedes Houston and Sequoyah, as well as parts of Virginia and Arkansas to the USA
• The USA is allowed to occupy Kentucky, which is a formal part of the CSA but under USA administration as a bargaining tool to force the CSA to pay reperations
• The USA annexes Canada

The Interwar Era

• A mild recession in 1919 along with labor unrest results in Upton Sinclair winning against Roosevelt
• The Sinclair Administration passes old age pensions and other welfare policies, but slashes the military budget
• Sinclair also ends Confederate reparations when Wade Hampton III is killed, but only does so in exchange for the release of Sylvia Enos
• Hosea Blackford succeeds Sinclair and is able to nationalize industries like Railroads, but loses when the Great depression hits
• In Europe, the Austro-Hungarian empire collapses into several different nations. Russia, Germany, and France compete for influence among these nations.
• A diplomatic switch is occuring, as Britain and Germany become closer while the US and Germany become less friendly. The US is able to improve its relations with actionist France and democratic Russia
• Jake Featherston's Dixie Party comes to power in 1933, and he begins creating an authoritarian government. He slowly removes all rights for the Black population, eventually creating labor camps where he uses black slave labor for manufacturing weapons of war. Confederate industrialization is further supported by British and German investments.
• Featherston also begins increasing Confederate control over Central America and the Caribbean through various interventions, which allows him to test out his army
• the Second Sino Japanese war reults in an increase in American-Japanese tensions. When Japanese weapons are found in the hands of Canadian rebels in 1937, the US declares war and conducts and island hopping campaign. US invades the Philippines in 1939 and is stuck in a stalemate.
• Sensing weakness in the US due to their lackluster performance against Japan, Featherston orders Freedomite militias to begin riots in Kentucky. Al Smith meets Featherston in June 1939 and signs the Richmond Agreement. US troops withdraw from Kentucky, and the CSA does not initially bring troops into the state.
• In December 1939, the CSA remilitarizes Kentucky. With a worsening war against Japan, the US is reluctant to confront Featherston.

The Second Great War

• In Febuary of 1940: Featherston demands that the US hold plescibites in all territory captured by the CSA in GWI. The USA refuses, and so Featherston declares war
• In Europe, Italy annexes South Tyrol from a rump Austria. The web of alliances results in Britain, Germany, and Austria (Central Powers) fighting against France, Italy, and Russia (Radial Powers). The Ottomans and Bulgarians remain neutral.
• Japan and Britain invade French Indochina. The Pacific, North American, and European fronts are now united into a single war.
• The first few months of the North American front are uneventful. The US believes that the war will be defensive, and conducts halfhearted offensives into Texas, Sonora, and Virginia. Sideshow battles occur in the Caribbean and Central America.
• There are not enough troops to spare to fight the Confederacy and Japan at the same time, so Ohio is left lightly guarded as noone believes the CSA will risk a large river crossing. Even if they do, there is confidence that US air power will halt any crossings.
• July 1940: Operation Blackbeard begins with a CSA invasion of Ohio. US air power is ineffective as the CS Air Force destroys most airfields in the Midwest. The CSA cuts straight through Ohio. Al Smith refuses peace.

Why does the US have to annex Canada? Personally, I always disagreed with that in the books. Most of Canada's geography is uninhabitable. Nowadays in our timeline, most of Canada lives near our border, and I assume they did back then. The change I always had in mind was for the US to create not one, but two allied states. Quebec, and Republic of Canada (after a few years of US occupation). Canada would be a backup ally during WW2 or at the very least neutral but leaning towards the US.

I don't really see why the US wants to annex a country that is barely habitated above the US-Canadian border. I could see them annexing New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the piece of Ontario that is in the Great Lakes though.

 

[Lalli]

Why does the US have to annex Canada? Personally, I always disagreed with that in the books. Most of Canada's geography is uninhabitable. Nowadays in our timeline, most of Canada lives near our border, and I assume they did back then. The change I always had in mind was for the US to create not one, but two allied states. Quebec, and Republic of Canada (after a few years of US occupation). Canada would be a backup ally during WW2 or at the very least neutral but leaning towards the US.

I don't really see why the US wants to annex a country that is barely habitated above the US-Canadian border. I could see them annexing New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the piece of Ontario that is in the Great Lakes though.

And another non-sense annexation is CSA at end of GW2. How USA even think that they could annex country which has been independent more than 80 years with millions of people who are not going to accept that? Or if they would think that, it is not going to be easy thing and probably failure at end.