Anti Semitic Stalin

Stephen

Banned
What if during the 30's Stalin decides to turn on the Jews and kill anyone without a foreskin. He gives German ambassadars tours of the secret facilities where jew, gypsies and muslims are turned into sausages. He starts a eugenics progam to breed the new soviet man. And He promises to form an alliance with germany against world Jewry and declare war on any country at war with Germany.

Does this make operation Barbarossa any less likely?
 
What if during the 30's Stalin decides to turn on the Jews and kill anyone without a foreskin. He gives German ambassadars tours of the secret facilities where jew, gypsies and muslims are turned into sausages. He promises to form an alliance with germany against wold Jewry and declare war on any country at war with Germany.

Does this make operation Barbarossa any less likely?

ahh... I think Hitler and Stalin had the "There can only be one!" rivalry going on for a while. I think there would still be a barbarosa. and hey, maybe even a reverse-barbarosa with a soviet invasion of nazi germany. who knows what Stalin would have done if pushed over the edge?
 
Because of Israel not being more pro-Soviet he had began sho trials in Western Europe were many of the local leftists parties were purged at the top, with three-fourths being Jewish at one point. Some also think that the Doctor's Plot of his was to goad the West into war.
 
about Stalin and Hitler "relationship"

Stalin think about a partnership of Third Reich and USSR
Hitler wandet Stalin and rest of russia death, so fast as possible!
even a Anti Semitic Stalin change nothing on Hitler attitude
He wandet also Anti Semitic Poland and Ukraine depopulated

On Soviet Holocaust it's called the Great Purge

NKVD troikas would arrest complet families
high rang member of politbureau and Communist partie
are foredooms to death penalty and put on lawsuit
civil servants are pulled out there office by NKVD death squads
and executed in the inner courtyards of ministry
those who escape death expected cruelly fate
deportation to the Gulag labor camps in Siberia
were Prisoner work to death for industrialization of USSR

Stalin had planed a new Great Purge "Doctors' plot" for 1954, target were doctors and jews !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors'_plot
lucky 1953 Stalin suffered a stroke, while he died.
no-one dear to aid him, frightened they end in Gulach or be executed...
 
Even if Stalin were ever anti-Semitic, he never acted on it. He kept close associates that were Jewish themselves (Lavrenti Beria) and the assumption that he specifically targeted Jews in his purges or the Doctor's Plot is really grasping at something that's not there, a great deal of support for Bolshevism arose from the Jews of Russia, explaining why their deaths may make the case for their targeting. As simple of an answer it is, it's demographics.
 
If Stalin turns into a Soviet Alexander III that does nothing to change German views of Slavs as subhumans or the likeliness of Barbarossa.
 
I thought Stalin was anti-Semitic, albeit not to the genocidal degree of Hitler.

(Although there were fears of Jew-killing after the "Doctors Plot" and his ramblings about "rootless cosmopolitans," he died before he could do anything.)
 
I thought Stalin was anti-Semitic, albeit not to the genocidal degree of Hitler.

(Although there were fears of Jew-killing after the "Doctors Plot" and his ramblings about "rootless cosmopolitans," he died before he could do anything.)

True, Stalin was not immune to antisemitism, as many Jews which I spoke to who fled the country post-WWII can attest to. It isn't that much of a stretch to see him move in that direction earlier than he did in OTL. Perhaps Stalin's feud with Trotsky acquires racial overtones? Afterall Trotsky was a Jew, it isn't hard to imagine Stalin jumping to the conclusion that all Soviet Jews are part of the "Trotskyist Conspiracy"!

That being said the OP's ideas of Soviet Eugenics and "sausages" are a bit far fetched. If anything Stalin's persecution of the Jews takes on a Soviet, not Nazi, form. Jews will be rounded up, relocated and herded into gulags/"re-education camps" much like other persecuted minorities/political opponents and used as slave labor for all of Stalin's various projects.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
Beria was Georgian like Stalin, though his two NKVD predecessors Yezhov and Yagoda were Jews.
Yezhov wasn't a Jew, he was Russian-Lithuanian. His wife, however, was a Jew.
Even if Stalin were ever anti-Semitic, he never acted on it.
Ha!
He kept close associates that were Jewish themselves (Lavrenti Beria)
As Damu said, Beria wasn't a Jew (nor was he a Georgian, he was a Mingrelian) and that was in fact propaganda spread when he started grumbling about the Doctor's Plot. With regards to Stalin keeping Jewish cohorts, honestly that's just to be expected; Jews were overrepresented in the Bolshevik hierarchy and some of them were Stalin's closest allies; Kaganovich, Molotov (by marriage), Pauker, etc.
and the assumption that he specifically targeted Jews in his purges or the Doctor's Plot is really grasping at something that's not there
Bull to the shit. The government supported and actively disseminated thinly-veiled anti-Semitic propaganda throughout the duration of the Doctor's Plot. While Stalin did not plan to kill all of Russia's Jews (he was a complicated sort of anti-Semite), he was more than likely beginning a campaign to present them as a fifth column to set the stage for the purge he was planning (many of those he was going to target were Jewish or were married to Jews).

With regards to the original Purges, no, Jew's weren't targeted per se, but thousands of Jews working for the State lost their jobs (including Foreign Commissar Litvinov) in the late '30s in order to appeal to Hitler.

As I said before, Stalin was a complicated anti-Semite. While he certainly didn't harbor genocidal feelings towards Jews, he didn't care for them in general and saw them as a people who were always trying to "worm" their way into power and influence and needed to be watched/treated as a fifth column. That being said, he did believe that there were some "good ones" out there like Kaganovich and the various Jewish women Stalin himself had affairs with.
a great deal of support for Bolshevism arose from the Jews of Russia, explaining why their deaths may make the case for their targeting.
So Jews were targeted because....they supported the Party :confused:

Perhaps Stalin's feud with Trotsky acquires racial overtones? Afterall Trotsky was a Jew, it isn't hard to imagine Stalin jumping to the conclusion that all Soviet Jews are part of the "Trotskyist Conspiracy"!
The problem with that is, of course, that too many of Stalin's allies were Jewish for this to acquire momentum. Plus anti-Semitism doesn't jive with Communism's rejection of racism.
 
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I thought Stalin was anti-Semitic, albeit not to the genocidal degree of Hitler.

(Although there were fears of Jew-killing after the "Doctors Plot" and his ramblings about "rootless cosmopolitans," he died before he could do anything.)

By that time he was near-senile and his view of Zionism and Jews in general had become blurred into one and the same once it became obvious Israel wouldnt be a Soviet ally.

Still there was a class aspect too humble-born Jews like Kaganovich (a cobbler's son) were quite safe, docters and Jews from the old urban middle class were in much greater danger.
 
. With regards to Stalin keeping Jewish cohorts, honestly that's just to be expected; Jews were overrepresented in the Bolshevik hierarchy and some of them were Stalin's closest allies; Kaganovich, Molotov (by marriage), Pauker, etc.
Bull to the shit. The government supported and actively disseminated thinly-veiled anti-Semitic propaganda throughout the duration of the Doctor's Plot. While Stalin did not plan to kill all of Russia's Jews (he was a complicated sort of anti-Semite), he was more than likely beginning a campaign to present them as a fifth column to set the stage for the purge he was planning (many of those he was going to target were Jewish or were married to Jews).

With regards to the original Purges, no, Jew's weren't targeted per se, but thousands of Jews working for the State lost their jobs (including Foreign Commissar Litvinov) in the late '30s in order to appeal to Hitler.

As I said before, Stalin was a complicated anti-Semite. While he certainly didn't harbor genocidal feelings towards Jews, he didn't care for them in general and saw them as a people who were always trying to "worm" their way into power and influence and needed to be watched/treated as a fifth column. That being said, he did believe that there were some "good ones" out there like Kaganovich and the various Jewish women Stalin himself had affairs with.So Jews were targeted because....they supported the Party :confused:

The problem with that is, of course, that too many of Stalin's allies were Jewish for this to acquire momentum. Plus anti-Semitism doesn't jive with Communism's rejection of racism.
I never said any of that :confused:

I made only one post in this thread:

Beria was Georgian like Stalin, though his two NKVD predecessors Yezhov and Yagoda were Jews.

EDIT: Just saw it now, you misquoted my post for that of TheMarauder.
 
The problem with that is, of course, that too many of Stalin's allies were Jewish for this to acquire momentum. Plus anti-Semitism doesn't jive with Communism's rejection of racism.
Apparently, you're unfamiliar with left-wing antisemitism. Being opposed to racism is something one can manipulate if desired by stipulating that Jews constitute a religion and not a 'nation' per se. Or, propaganda can try and portray them as bourgeoisie and/or collaborators in the oppression of the proletariat. I know it's more complicated than that in reality, but some opponents of racism have at times been antisemitic. The thing about any hatred is that it is irrational, much like expecting a cabal awarded full power over society (in this case, the CPSU) to not abuse its unchecked power.
 
My great uncle, Lev Dorman, graduated with a degree in nuclear physics. All of his classmates went on to work on nuclear submarines. Lev, being Jewish, was barred from such sensitive subjects, and he became a (rather famous) gamma ray astronomer.

Within 5 years, all of the favored classmates were dead of radiation poisoning. Long live anti-semitism!

On an interesting note, Lev's dad-in-law was Vitaly Ginzburg. He helped invent the Soviet H-bomb, along with Sakharov. I'm not sure why he was allowed to work on that project.

It does mean my great-great-uncle-in-law was a Physics Nobel Prize winner (2003). <preen>
 
Stalin went after the Jews, especially the Polish Jews. Yes he was very anti semitic as were most Communists.
I'm sure that's why a large percentage of the Old Bolsheviks were Jews, or why Lenin explicitly denounced anti-Semitism on numerous occasions. :rolleyes:
 
I'm sure that's why a large percentage of the Old Bolsheviks were Jews, or why Lenin explicitly denounced anti-Semitism on numerous occasions. :rolleyes:

Because it's entirely impossible to find Jew-hatred justified by words like this:

Contempt for theory, art, history, and for man as an end in himself, which is contained in an abstract form in the Jewish religion, is the real, conscious standpoint, the virtue of the man of money. The species-relation itself, the relation between man and woman, etc., becomes an object of trade! The woman is bought and sold.
The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
The groundless law of the Jew is only a religious caricature of groundless morality and right in general, of the purely formal rites with which the world of self-interest surrounds itself.
Here, too, man’s supreme relation is the legal one, his relation to laws that are valid for him not because they are laws of his own will and nature, but because they are the dominant laws and because departure from them is avenged.
Jewish Jesuitism, the same practical Jesuitism which Bauer discovers in the Talmud, is the relation of the world of self-interest to the laws governing that world, the chief art of which consists in the cunning circumvention of these laws.
Indeed, the movement of this world within its framework of laws is bound to be a continual suspension of law.
Judaism could not develop further as a religion, could not develop further theoretically, because the world outlook of practical need is essentially limited and is completed in a few strokes.
By its very nature, the religion of practical need could find its consummation not in theory, but only in practice, precisely because its truth is practice.
Judaism could not create a new world; it could only draw the new creations and conditions of the world into the sphere of its activity, because practical need, the rationale of which is self-interest, is passive and does not expand at will, but finds itself enlarged as a result of the continuous development of social conditions.
Judaism reaches its highest point with the perfection of civil society, but it is only in the Christian world that civil society attains perfection. Only under the dominance of Christianity, which makes all national, natural, moral, and theoretical conditions extrinsic to man, could civil society separate itself completely from the life of the state, sever all the species-ties of man, put egoism and selfish need in the place of these species-ties, and dissolve the human world into a world of atomistic individuals who are inimically opposed to one another.
 
Because it's entirely impossible to find Jew-hatred justified by words like this:

Contempt for theory, art, history, and for man as an end in himself, which is contained in an abstract form in the Jewish religion, is the real, conscious standpoint, the virtue of the man of money. The species-relation itself, the relation between man and woman, etc., becomes an object of trade! The woman is bought and sold.
The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.
The groundless law of the Jew is only a religious caricature of groundless morality and right in general, of the purely formal rites with which the world of self-interest surrounds itself.
Here, too, man’s supreme relation is the legal one, his relation to laws that are valid for him not because they are laws of his own will and nature, but because they are the dominant laws and because departure from them is avenged.
Jewish Jesuitism, the same practical Jesuitism which Bauer discovers in the Talmud, is the relation of the world of self-interest to the laws governing that world, the chief art of which consists in the cunning circumvention of these laws.
Indeed, the movement of this world within its framework of laws is bound to be a continual suspension of law.
Judaism could not develop further as a religion, could not develop further theoretically, because the world outlook of practical need is essentially limited and is completed in a few strokes.
By its very nature, the religion of practical need could find its consummation not in theory, but only in practice, precisely because its truth is practice.
Judaism could not create a new world; it could only draw the new creations and conditions of the world into the sphere of its activity, because practical need, the rationale of which is self-interest, is passive and does not expand at will, but finds itself enlarged as a result of the continuous development of social conditions.
Judaism reaches its highest point with the perfection of civil society, but it is only in the Christian world that civil society attains perfection. Only under the dominance of Christianity, which makes all national, natural, moral, and theoretical conditions extrinsic to man, could civil society separate itself completely from the life of the state, sever all the species-ties of man, put egoism and selfish need in the place of these species-ties, and dissolve the human world into a world of atomistic individuals who are inimically opposed to one another.

Have you even read On The Jewish Question by Marx? If you did, you wouldn't have posted something so out of context and used it to fuel a moot argument.

Antisemitism has nothing to do with communism, it was a symptom of the times, as was opposition to homosexuality. It's easy to look back in retrospect with the goggles of liberalism and denounce these beliefs, but the fact remains that a good number of people simply felt that way, and whether they acted on these motives is also debatable since a lot of it was passive.

Stalin never pushed an antisemitic agenda, though you can try and argue you with what we know about him now, it was never a motivating factor. His issues were more class related than anything, and he pursued a ruthless reconstruction of the bureaucracy around his established clique, taking the place of an overrepresented minority in the Bolshevik regime.
 
Have you even read On The Jewish Question by Marx? If you did, you wouldn't have posted something so out of context and used it to fuel a moot argument.

Antisemitism has nothing to do with communism, it was a symptom of the times, as was opposition to homosexuality. It's easy to look back in retrospect with the goggles of liberalism and denounce these beliefs, but the fact remains that a good number of people simply felt that way, and whether they acted on these motives is also debatable since a lot of it was passive.

Stalin never pushed an antisemitic agenda, though you can try and argue you with what we know about him now, it was never a motivating factor. His issues were more class related than anything, and he pursued a ruthless reconstruction of the bureaucracy around his established clique, taking the place of an overrepresented minority in the Bolshevik regime.

Yes, I have read On the Jewish Question. It was very much a Jew-hating tract and showed that Karl Marx was in fact convinced that Da Juice were a threat to his idea like they were to the various pan-nationalists. Marxism-Leninism worshiped every word that Marx said like Rand's fanboys, so if I may but ask an unfortunate question, with writings like that, why is Marxism going to *not* be Jew-hating.
 
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