Answers for Milinda
- Thread starter Faeelin
- Start date
“He declared that the day would never come on which [the commander of the Carthaginians] would behold the sun and his native city in flames; for to the nobly-minded one's country and its burning houses were a glorious funeral pile."-Polybius
Meanwhile, changes are afoot in Galatia. Traditionally, Galatia was ruled as a confederation. The three Celtic tribes, the Tectosages, the Trocmi, and the Tolistobogii, were each divided into four parts, called tetrarchies. A council representing the twelve tetrarchies, met at Drunemetom, and for a long time the system worked. But by the beinning of the 2nd Century BC, there were signs that the situation was changing. In 189 BC Ortagion, a chief of the Tolistobogii, attempted to unite Galatia, but what happened next is sketchy, as records in societies that don’t write histories tends to be. The next written account refers to how, in 88 BC, Mithridates destroyed the Galatian nobility by slaughtering them at Pergamum, and it is clear that in OTL the traditional system was not replaced by a monarch until 64 BC.
In the ATL, Ortagion joined the Romans during the 2nd Seleucid War, which ended in 157 BC. Ortagion was successful enough to confirm his status as ruler of the Galatians, and also fought a series of successful wars against Cappadocia. When he died in 151 BC, his son Aiorix succeeded to his position as King of the Galatians.
His son was not an absolute monarch as the Hellenistic Kings were, however. Ortagion was a strong monarch, but that was partly because he would only demand things from his subjects that he was sure that he could achieve; and he was still forced to listen to the council at Drunemetom. Many nobles were questioning why his son should succeed to his position, and Aiorix realized there was only one thing that could silence his critics. That was, of course, a war with Pergamum.
Pergamum had only recently, after all, acquired a new ruler, and it soon became clear to many that he would be incapable of stopping the Galatian raids, which ranged as far as the Aegean. Aiorix was careful to avoid attacking Rhodian cities along the coast, but by 145 BC much of Pergamum had been overrun.
Meanwhile, the Romans carefully take stock of their situation, and decide to focus their priorities. There are claims that Rome largely brought the series of wars upon itself. The first priority was Carthage, which finally fell in 145 BC to Scipio Aemilianus, earning him the title Africanus.
The Senate had then debated whether or not he should serve as the commander of the legions against the Achaeans, who were given the next priority. He served with distinction there, and was then dispatched to Achaea.
The Achaeans, who had seemed for one glorious moment to be on the verge of driving the Romans back across the Adriatic, collapsed like a house of cards. Scipio annihilated the Achaean army at Thermopylae, and smashed his way into Corinth. The city was devastated and reduced to ruins, and “freedom for the Greeks” was buried beneath the smoking ruins of Corinth. Scipio’s legions then joined with the Galations in subduing Pergamum, and the only power remaining was the Seleucid Empire.
[1] Alexander to Actium.
The Mediterranean, as of 143 BC
Meanwhile, changes are afoot in Galatia. Traditionally, Galatia was ruled as a confederation. The three Celtic tribes, the Tectosages, the Trocmi, and the Tolistobogii, were each divided into four parts, called tetrarchies. A council representing the twelve tetrarchies, met at Drunemetom, and for a long time the system worked. But by the beinning of the 2nd Century BC, there were signs that the situation was changing. In 189 BC Ortagion, a chief of the Tolistobogii, attempted to unite Galatia, but what happened next is sketchy, as records in societies that don’t write histories tends to be. The next written account refers to how, in 88 BC, Mithridates destroyed the Galatian nobility by slaughtering them at Pergamum, and it is clear that in OTL the traditional system was not replaced by a monarch until 64 BC.
In the ATL, Ortagion joined the Romans during the 2nd Seleucid War, which ended in 157 BC. Ortagion was successful enough to confirm his status as ruler of the Galatians, and also fought a series of successful wars against Cappadocia. When he died in 151 BC, his son Aiorix succeeded to his position as King of the Galatians.
His son was not an absolute monarch as the Hellenistic Kings were, however. Ortagion was a strong monarch, but that was partly because he would only demand things from his subjects that he was sure that he could achieve; and he was still forced to listen to the council at Drunemetom. Many nobles were questioning why his son should succeed to his position, and Aiorix realized there was only one thing that could silence his critics. That was, of course, a war with Pergamum.
Pergamum had only recently, after all, acquired a new ruler, and it soon became clear to many that he would be incapable of stopping the Galatian raids, which ranged as far as the Aegean. Aiorix was careful to avoid attacking Rhodian cities along the coast, but by 145 BC much of Pergamum had been overrun.
Meanwhile, the Romans carefully take stock of their situation, and decide to focus their priorities. There are claims that Rome largely brought the series of wars upon itself. The first priority was Carthage, which finally fell in 145 BC to Scipio Aemilianus, earning him the title Africanus.
The Senate had then debated whether or not he should serve as the commander of the legions against the Achaeans, who were given the next priority. He served with distinction there, and was then dispatched to Achaea.
The Achaeans, who had seemed for one glorious moment to be on the verge of driving the Romans back across the Adriatic, collapsed like a house of cards. Scipio annihilated the Achaean army at Thermopylae, and smashed his way into Corinth. The city was devastated and reduced to ruins, and “freedom for the Greeks” was buried beneath the smoking ruins of Corinth. Scipio’s legions then joined with the Galations in subduing Pergamum, and the only power remaining was the Seleucid Empire.
[1] Alexander to Actium.
The Mediterranean, as of 143 BC
“The Sanscrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have spring from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists . . . .”-William Jones
Pataliputra, India, 130 BC
Andromachus sighed as he looked around the library. He was, he knew, a lucky man. He was the librarian for the King of Bactria, he had traveled from Alexandria to Bactra, he had conversed with Sericans and Indian sages, he had heard prophesies at Delphi, and he had journeyed to the Golden Isles to the Southeast. Not a bad life, thought Andromachus, for one who was not yet forty.
Andromachus sat down at the table he was sitting at, and looked at the document in front of him. He scowled. “Diophantes, come here!” He yelled.
The slave hurried over. “Yes, sir?” asked Diophantes.
Andromachus snarled. He hit the parchment that he was holding in his hand. “What is this?” he demanded.
”The Indian work, the Rig Veda.” Diophantes’s face showed what he thought of the library having copies of Indian works. “Or, at least, the first book of it.”
“Don’t you think I know that?” demanded Andromachus. “But it’s in Greek!”
Andromachus sighed. He was not, despite his name, a Greek by heritage. His family had adopted Greek customs and mannerisms, and his father, Sushruta, had given him the name Andromachus. In many ways Andromachus was a Greek; yet no man could turn his back on his ancestors. He had been educated in the ways of Greeks and by Buddhist monks, and visited the gymnasium while making sacrifices to Vishna.
But despite his family’s adoption of Greek ways, there were still those who considered him to be inferior. Andromachus had been called a barbarian more than once, and it rankled him. He had long sought a way to prove that the Greeks were no better than the natives of India, whatever they might boast. And at long last, he thought he had found a way.
He had noticed, years ago, that there were odd similarities between Greek and Sanskrit. He had learned Persian as well, and he had noticed the similarities between the three languages. The word father, for instance, was “pita” in Sanskrit, “pater” in Greek, and “pitar” in Persian. The word for brother, “brahtar” in Sanskrit, sounded like the Greek “phrater”.
There were, of course, differences between the languages. But Andromachus was no fool; he had cajoled the head of a monastery into loaning him a copy of Panini’s “Treatise on Words” [1]. That had inspired him to strip prefixes and suffixes from Greek and Sanskrit words, and he had discovered dozens of words that were similar between the two languages.
He had then This led to a remembered the works of Aristarchos of Samothrace, who compared the language of Homer to modern Greek. It had soon become apparent that the language was close to Sanskrit than modern Greek was. He had then noticed that Vedic Sanskrit was closer to Homeric Greek, in turn, than the Prakits [2] were.
Andromachus had made a couple of other observations. it was generally assumed by the Greeks that Hindoi were followers of Dionysus, and it had been he who had taught the Hindoi how to make wine, and to grow crops and live in cities.
The Hindoi, for their part, had assumed that the Greeks were the descendents of Turvasu, son of Indra. Andromachus had studied the two religions, and come to an astonishing conclusion.
Indra and Zeus both slew their fathers with the help of their mothers. Both were the lords of the gods, throwing lightning bolts. Both pursued the mortal women with reckless abandon.
It was fairly obvious to Andromachus that Zeus and Indra were but different names for the same god. When combined with the linguistic similarities between the Greeks and the Indians, it became apparent that the Greeks and Hindoi were the same people, who had merely been separated by time. Fr from treating the Hindoi like subjects, the Greeks should recognize them as the long lost kinsmen that they truly were.
[1] Panini’s work, written in the 4th century BC.
[2] Essentially the vulgar languages of India at this point.
Pataliputra, India, 130 BC
Andromachus sighed as he looked around the library. He was, he knew, a lucky man. He was the librarian for the King of Bactria, he had traveled from Alexandria to Bactra, he had conversed with Sericans and Indian sages, he had heard prophesies at Delphi, and he had journeyed to the Golden Isles to the Southeast. Not a bad life, thought Andromachus, for one who was not yet forty.
Andromachus sat down at the table he was sitting at, and looked at the document in front of him. He scowled. “Diophantes, come here!” He yelled.
The slave hurried over. “Yes, sir?” asked Diophantes.
Andromachus snarled. He hit the parchment that he was holding in his hand. “What is this?” he demanded.
”The Indian work, the Rig Veda.” Diophantes’s face showed what he thought of the library having copies of Indian works. “Or, at least, the first book of it.”
“Don’t you think I know that?” demanded Andromachus. “But it’s in Greek!”
Andromachus sighed. He was not, despite his name, a Greek by heritage. His family had adopted Greek customs and mannerisms, and his father, Sushruta, had given him the name Andromachus. In many ways Andromachus was a Greek; yet no man could turn his back on his ancestors. He had been educated in the ways of Greeks and by Buddhist monks, and visited the gymnasium while making sacrifices to Vishna.
But despite his family’s adoption of Greek ways, there were still those who considered him to be inferior. Andromachus had been called a barbarian more than once, and it rankled him. He had long sought a way to prove that the Greeks were no better than the natives of India, whatever they might boast. And at long last, he thought he had found a way.
He had noticed, years ago, that there were odd similarities between Greek and Sanskrit. He had learned Persian as well, and he had noticed the similarities between the three languages. The word father, for instance, was “pita” in Sanskrit, “pater” in Greek, and “pitar” in Persian. The word for brother, “brahtar” in Sanskrit, sounded like the Greek “phrater”.
There were, of course, differences between the languages. But Andromachus was no fool; he had cajoled the head of a monastery into loaning him a copy of Panini’s “Treatise on Words” [1]. That had inspired him to strip prefixes and suffixes from Greek and Sanskrit words, and he had discovered dozens of words that were similar between the two languages.
He had then This led to a remembered the works of Aristarchos of Samothrace, who compared the language of Homer to modern Greek. It had soon become apparent that the language was close to Sanskrit than modern Greek was. He had then noticed that Vedic Sanskrit was closer to Homeric Greek, in turn, than the Prakits [2] were.
Andromachus had made a couple of other observations. it was generally assumed by the Greeks that Hindoi were followers of Dionysus, and it had been he who had taught the Hindoi how to make wine, and to grow crops and live in cities.
The Hindoi, for their part, had assumed that the Greeks were the descendents of Turvasu, son of Indra. Andromachus had studied the two religions, and come to an astonishing conclusion.
Indra and Zeus both slew their fathers with the help of their mothers. Both were the lords of the gods, throwing lightning bolts. Both pursued the mortal women with reckless abandon.
It was fairly obvious to Andromachus that Zeus and Indra were but different names for the same god. When combined with the linguistic similarities between the Greeks and the Indians, it became apparent that the Greeks and Hindoi were the same people, who had merely been separated by time. Fr from treating the Hindoi like subjects, the Greeks should recognize them as the long lost kinsmen that they truly were.
[1] Panini’s work, written in the 4th century BC.
[2] Essentially the vulgar languages of India at this point.
Faeelin said:
You are a nasty man, Faeelin! I likes it. Andromachus seems to have issues and given his privileged position I would be heartily unsurprised if he were to do demagogue like things. His findings are rapidly going to be picked at, and accepted reasonably fast. I expect new fascination with the brother peoples of the Greeks, the Indians and the Persians to begin warring with a xenophobic reaction very rapidly. At a guess, the "Greek" Indians will trry for being more Greek than the Greeks, rejecting Buddhism for the "purity" of the real Greek religion. I expect this will be strongest in the gana-sangha/polis.
Once the Romans turn the Meditteranean into their lake, I'd expect the Greeks to get seriously Indophilic, looking to India as "that Other Hellas" where the glories of the polis is untainted.
How's the Hellenisation of Persia going. I expect the next 20-50 years between now and the seleucid Roman showdown should give it time to bed down.
How was Carthage treated upon conquest?
Can we have a key for the map please?
What do you think of my idea from SHWI about the nomad horse tribe as polis, with every man on a horse theoretically starting out equal?
Barry Cotter said:
I gotta disagree about Buddhism; nothing inherently implausible about having gods while being a Buddhist; they do it all the time. And Stoicism and Buddhism can mesh very well, as I pointed out a while ago.
But this will lead to a lot of controversy and dispute. Was Isocrates right when he claimed that being Greek was a matter of culture and not of birth? If so, are all Indians Greek?
That's not a bad idea, actually. The Buddhists in China viewed India as a holy place; why not the Greeks?
Not guaranteed, mind.
I'm a bit skeptical that the Hellnisation of Perisa would suddenly take off. Alexander's known as "Alexander the Vandal", after all.
They'll probably pick up tragedies, as the Parthians of OTL did, but much more?
As in OTL. Ruthlessly, and systematic enslavement.
I'll paste it again, with titles.
Intriguing, but it doesn't really mesh with the way the nomadic tribes were set up; after all, the Khan isn't exactly an elected title.
Pataliputra, India, 125 BC
Andromachus leaned back in his chair and yawned. His work, ”Reflections Upon the Origins of the Hindoi”, had so far received favorable comments from many philosophers in India, although the Brahmins had generally mocked the work.
It was a pity, he thought, that copying works took so long. He would have loved to send copies of his work to Alexandria, Pergamom, Athens, Rhodes, Antioch, and all the other great cities of the world, but copying by hand was expensive. It was a pity, Andromachus had often thought, that there wasno way to make cheap copies of works.
But, he knew, it was important to remain content with what he had. He was wealthy, thanks to the rewards of the king. He had a good wife, and sons to follow after him. In fact, his wife had given birth to another son, who looked so far as if he would survive.
To thank his wife, Andromachus had decided to get his wife fine gifts. He had bought spices from the Golden Isles, wine from Cyprus, ivory from Africa, and a carpet [4].
Andromachus had left the library early one day to visit the man was responsible for the rug, Kalidasa. Kalidasa was one of the more important members of the shreni of carpet makers, and a good enough man. When Andromachus went to his shop, he was greeted by one of his slaves at the entrance. After the customary formalities, he sat down with Kalidasa over wine.
“Tell me,” asked Andromachus, “how goes the carpet I ordered?”
“Well enough, well enough,” replied Kalidasa. “Would you care to see its progress?”
Andromachus nodded. “Why not?” he asked.
They walked into a room, and saw an apprentice working on the rug. The design was only half-finished, but was an intricate pattern of shapes and lines, in hues ranging from indigo to maroon. He was taken aback, despite himself. “Impressive,” he said at last. “But how do you make the pattern?”
Kalidasa laughed. “Easy enough. You take a block,” he said as he picked one up, “use it to make stamps.”
Kalidasa passed the block to Andromachus, who looked at intently. “Why do you have strips of copper in the block?” he asked.
Kalidasa smiled. “Wood doesn’t last, and isn’t really suited for fine patterns. But copper will last, and lets you carve intricate designs.”
“Then,” said Kalidasa, “you press the block, after covering it in dye, on the rug, and pound it on.” He demonstrated by adding another piece of pattern to the rug. “Pick it up, and move on to the next part of the fabric.”
Andromachus watched, and stood still for a second. After a moment, he said, “And this would work with any pattern?”
Kalidasa snorted. ‘It had better. You should see some of the things I’ve made.” He noticed the look on Andromachus’s face. “Why do you ask?”
“I have had an idea, that seems if it has come to me from Saraswathi [5]. Listen,” he said, “and I will tell you what I have seen.”
The idea came together slowly and fitfully, but Kalidasa and Andromachus kept at it. Discovering ink was no problem; Kalidasa had experience making dyes in all the colors one could imagine.
“I wonder,” said Andromachus, as he looked at one of the carved blocks, “why no one thought of this before.”
Kalidasa snorted. “Have you looked at the Yavana script lately? Compared to what we use, it’s so simple a child could write it. It’s much easier to carve than Kharoshti would be. I bet you could put each of the different letters on a single block, instead of doing it by pages.”
Andromachus looked at Kalidasa. “Why don’t you do that then?” he asked. “Then you could reuse the letters, instead of carving a separate block for each page.”
Kalidasa grunted. “It could work, I suppose. But do you know how annoying it would be, to carve so many blocks?”
Andromachus shrugged. “Easier, I would think, than carving a block every time you needed a new page, no?”
Kalidasa pursed his lips. “Perhaps, perhaps.” He looked down at the work and sighed. “You know, the Yavana script will probably dominate India, now.”
Andromachus looked up from one of the blocks. “Why’s that?”
“It’s easier to use,” replied Kalidasa. “I pointed out earlier how it was simpler than Kharoshti. What do you think will happen, if men are given the choice between an easy script and a hard one?”
Andromachus nodded slowly. It wasn’t a point he was willing to acknowledge, but Kalidasa was probably right. “That’s for the gods to decide,” he said at last. “I have an idea, about what we should print first.”
Pataliptura, 123 BC
“Great King,” said Andromachus, “It is known to us, your humble subjects, that you seek to spread the word of the Enlightened One, as your forefathers did.”
King Apollo, son of King Menander, sat on his throne and nodded. “This is true,” he said with a smile on his face, “but what does that have to do with my librarian?”
Andromachus bowed his head again, and nodded to his slaves. “Kalidasa, one of the carpet makers of your great city, and I, have worked diligently to learn how to produce more works, that your wish may be fulfilled.”
The slaves placed baskets of books before the king. “These, Great King, are copies of the Sutta Pitaka [6].”
The king’s eyes widened as he watched the baskets pile up. “And just the two of you made them?”
“With some help from our slaves, yes, Great King. We needed no scribes.”
The king’s eyes narrowed. “How did you manage this?” he asked. “What gave you this idea?”
“Great King,” said Andromachus, “I watched the workers of Kalidasa, as they fashioned a rug. I saw the way they pressed a pattern repeatedly, and it occurred to me that the patterns they fashioned were no more complex than the Greek script.”
“By mixing the skills of the Greeks and Indians, and with help from the gods, we have made something new.”
[4] It pays to be a librarian.
[5] The consort of Brahma, and the goddess of wisdom and learning.
[6] A series of works which are based on the life of the Buddha, and important in the early Buddhist canon.
Andromachus leaned back in his chair and yawned. His work, ”Reflections Upon the Origins of the Hindoi”, had so far received favorable comments from many philosophers in India, although the Brahmins had generally mocked the work.
It was a pity, he thought, that copying works took so long. He would have loved to send copies of his work to Alexandria, Pergamom, Athens, Rhodes, Antioch, and all the other great cities of the world, but copying by hand was expensive. It was a pity, Andromachus had often thought, that there wasno way to make cheap copies of works.
But, he knew, it was important to remain content with what he had. He was wealthy, thanks to the rewards of the king. He had a good wife, and sons to follow after him. In fact, his wife had given birth to another son, who looked so far as if he would survive.
To thank his wife, Andromachus had decided to get his wife fine gifts. He had bought spices from the Golden Isles, wine from Cyprus, ivory from Africa, and a carpet [4].
Andromachus had left the library early one day to visit the man was responsible for the rug, Kalidasa. Kalidasa was one of the more important members of the shreni of carpet makers, and a good enough man. When Andromachus went to his shop, he was greeted by one of his slaves at the entrance. After the customary formalities, he sat down with Kalidasa over wine.
“Tell me,” asked Andromachus, “how goes the carpet I ordered?”
“Well enough, well enough,” replied Kalidasa. “Would you care to see its progress?”
Andromachus nodded. “Why not?” he asked.
They walked into a room, and saw an apprentice working on the rug. The design was only half-finished, but was an intricate pattern of shapes and lines, in hues ranging from indigo to maroon. He was taken aback, despite himself. “Impressive,” he said at last. “But how do you make the pattern?”
Kalidasa laughed. “Easy enough. You take a block,” he said as he picked one up, “use it to make stamps.”
Kalidasa passed the block to Andromachus, who looked at intently. “Why do you have strips of copper in the block?” he asked.
Kalidasa smiled. “Wood doesn’t last, and isn’t really suited for fine patterns. But copper will last, and lets you carve intricate designs.”
“Then,” said Kalidasa, “you press the block, after covering it in dye, on the rug, and pound it on.” He demonstrated by adding another piece of pattern to the rug. “Pick it up, and move on to the next part of the fabric.”
Andromachus watched, and stood still for a second. After a moment, he said, “And this would work with any pattern?”
Kalidasa snorted. ‘It had better. You should see some of the things I’ve made.” He noticed the look on Andromachus’s face. “Why do you ask?”
“I have had an idea, that seems if it has come to me from Saraswathi [5]. Listen,” he said, “and I will tell you what I have seen.”
The idea came together slowly and fitfully, but Kalidasa and Andromachus kept at it. Discovering ink was no problem; Kalidasa had experience making dyes in all the colors one could imagine.
“I wonder,” said Andromachus, as he looked at one of the carved blocks, “why no one thought of this before.”
Kalidasa snorted. “Have you looked at the Yavana script lately? Compared to what we use, it’s so simple a child could write it. It’s much easier to carve than Kharoshti would be. I bet you could put each of the different letters on a single block, instead of doing it by pages.”
Andromachus looked at Kalidasa. “Why don’t you do that then?” he asked. “Then you could reuse the letters, instead of carving a separate block for each page.”
Kalidasa grunted. “It could work, I suppose. But do you know how annoying it would be, to carve so many blocks?”
Andromachus shrugged. “Easier, I would think, than carving a block every time you needed a new page, no?”
Kalidasa pursed his lips. “Perhaps, perhaps.” He looked down at the work and sighed. “You know, the Yavana script will probably dominate India, now.”
Andromachus looked up from one of the blocks. “Why’s that?”
“It’s easier to use,” replied Kalidasa. “I pointed out earlier how it was simpler than Kharoshti. What do you think will happen, if men are given the choice between an easy script and a hard one?”
Andromachus nodded slowly. It wasn’t a point he was willing to acknowledge, but Kalidasa was probably right. “That’s for the gods to decide,” he said at last. “I have an idea, about what we should print first.”
Pataliptura, 123 BC
“Great King,” said Andromachus, “It is known to us, your humble subjects, that you seek to spread the word of the Enlightened One, as your forefathers did.”
King Apollo, son of King Menander, sat on his throne and nodded. “This is true,” he said with a smile on his face, “but what does that have to do with my librarian?”
Andromachus bowed his head again, and nodded to his slaves. “Kalidasa, one of the carpet makers of your great city, and I, have worked diligently to learn how to produce more works, that your wish may be fulfilled.”
The slaves placed baskets of books before the king. “These, Great King, are copies of the Sutta Pitaka [6].”
The king’s eyes widened as he watched the baskets pile up. “And just the two of you made them?”
“With some help from our slaves, yes, Great King. We needed no scribes.”
The king’s eyes narrowed. “How did you manage this?” he asked. “What gave you this idea?”
“Great King,” said Andromachus, “I watched the workers of Kalidasa, as they fashioned a rug. I saw the way they pressed a pattern repeatedly, and it occurred to me that the patterns they fashioned were no more complex than the Greek script.”
“By mixing the skills of the Greeks and Indians, and with help from the gods, we have made something new.”
[4] It pays to be a librarian.
[5] The consort of Brahma, and the goddess of wisdom and learning.
[6] A series of works which are based on the life of the Buddha, and important in the early Buddhist canon.
Always about the maps. Fortunately I am a wise and benevolent being, so there is a map.
The Son of Heaven had a problem, as children of celestial objects often do. Ever since the first Han Emperor, China had paid tribute to the Xiongnu [1] along the northern border, to avoid being invaded. The Han had paid tribute in silk and rice wine, and rice,, and the Xiongnu had agreed not to attack the Han.
The problem, of course, was that things didn’t work out this way. Peace was only kept if the tribute was increased when the Xiongnu wished for more tribute, and disloyal nobles and generals could defect to the Xiongnu for support. And even with the tribute, the Xiongnu would still occasionally raid China.
The problems with the system were obvious fairly early on. As early as the 170’s, the policy of paying tribute had come under severe criticism.
“The situation of the empire may be described just like a person hanging upside down. The Son of Heaven is the head of the Empire, the barbarians the feet. Now, the Xiongnu are arrogant and insolent on the one hand, and invade and plunder us on the other hand, which must be considered as an expression of extreme disrespect toward us. Yet each year Han provides them with money, silk and fabrics. To command the barbarian is the power vested in the Emperor on the top, and, to present tribute to the Son of Heaven is a ritual to be performed by vassals at the bottom. Now the feet are put on the top and the head at the bottom. Hanging upside down like this is something beyond comprehension.”-Chia I
Finally, the Emperor Wu-ti had enough of this, and began to consider other options. In 135 BC the Xiongnu had sent envoys to the Han capital to negotiate the renewal of the tribute, and after a long debate, it was decided that the tribute would continue temporarily. But in 133 BC the Emperor decided to reverse the policy, and, as in OTL, the Han went on the offensive.
Even in OTL the Han succeeded in defeating the Xiongnu. Under the skilled leadership of generals such as Wei Ch’ing and Huo Ch’u-ping, the Han drove the Xiongnu back. Defensive lines were extended west, an the Han established garrisons across Sinkiang. By 100 BC, the Han had conquered Ferghana, which had been ruled by Bactria a century ago.
The Han expanded in other directions as well. The Han expanded southwards, and by 111 BC the Han had established provinces in Yunnan and Szechwan. Provinces were established in Korea, and Northern Vietnam also fell under the sway of the Han.
In the ATL, the conquest of the Western regions is even easier, thanks to the assistance that comes from Bactria.
Full scale warfare between the Han and the Xiongnu did not break out until 129 BC, when 40,000 Han cavalry attacked the Xiongnu at the border markets. In 127 BC the general We Ch’ing led an army to into the Xiongnu lands, and almost one hundred thousand Chinese were settled in the area.
Meanwhile, the Bactrians advance through Sinkiang as well, and retake Ferghana. Bt the campaigns are, for all sides, brutal. According to Han reports from OTL, each side lost about eighty thousand men. Logistics were a nightmare as well, but the campaigns ground on.
In 122 BC, two important Xiongnu lords in the western regions of the Xiongnu empire defected to the side of the Han and Bactrians, and in 107, attacked from both sides, the Xiongnu accepted the status as tributaries of the Han.
The Han established the office of protector-General, and the general Wei Ch’ing is appointed to the office, which is based in Chadir in Central Asia.
From India, meanwhile, the Greeks advanced through Southeast Asia, while the Chinese advanced, as in OTL against the “southwestern barbarians”. The Kingdom of India and the Han Empire bordered in Yunnan by 100 BC.
But even before then, merchants and envoys had begun traveling directly between Bactria and the Han Empire. The leader of the first official embassy to the Han court in Cha’ang-an was, of course, Andromachus.
[1] They have been tentatively identified as the Huns, but this might not be accurate.
Anyone have any thoughts as to how this will go?
The Son of Heaven had a problem, as children of celestial objects often do. Ever since the first Han Emperor, China had paid tribute to the Xiongnu [1] along the northern border, to avoid being invaded. The Han had paid tribute in silk and rice wine, and rice,, and the Xiongnu had agreed not to attack the Han.
The problem, of course, was that things didn’t work out this way. Peace was only kept if the tribute was increased when the Xiongnu wished for more tribute, and disloyal nobles and generals could defect to the Xiongnu for support. And even with the tribute, the Xiongnu would still occasionally raid China.
The problems with the system were obvious fairly early on. As early as the 170’s, the policy of paying tribute had come under severe criticism.
“The situation of the empire may be described just like a person hanging upside down. The Son of Heaven is the head of the Empire, the barbarians the feet. Now, the Xiongnu are arrogant and insolent on the one hand, and invade and plunder us on the other hand, which must be considered as an expression of extreme disrespect toward us. Yet each year Han provides them with money, silk and fabrics. To command the barbarian is the power vested in the Emperor on the top, and, to present tribute to the Son of Heaven is a ritual to be performed by vassals at the bottom. Now the feet are put on the top and the head at the bottom. Hanging upside down like this is something beyond comprehension.”-Chia I
Finally, the Emperor Wu-ti had enough of this, and began to consider other options. In 135 BC the Xiongnu had sent envoys to the Han capital to negotiate the renewal of the tribute, and after a long debate, it was decided that the tribute would continue temporarily. But in 133 BC the Emperor decided to reverse the policy, and, as in OTL, the Han went on the offensive.
Even in OTL the Han succeeded in defeating the Xiongnu. Under the skilled leadership of generals such as Wei Ch’ing and Huo Ch’u-ping, the Han drove the Xiongnu back. Defensive lines were extended west, an the Han established garrisons across Sinkiang. By 100 BC, the Han had conquered Ferghana, which had been ruled by Bactria a century ago.
The Han expanded in other directions as well. The Han expanded southwards, and by 111 BC the Han had established provinces in Yunnan and Szechwan. Provinces were established in Korea, and Northern Vietnam also fell under the sway of the Han.
In the ATL, the conquest of the Western regions is even easier, thanks to the assistance that comes from Bactria.
Full scale warfare between the Han and the Xiongnu did not break out until 129 BC, when 40,000 Han cavalry attacked the Xiongnu at the border markets. In 127 BC the general We Ch’ing led an army to into the Xiongnu lands, and almost one hundred thousand Chinese were settled in the area.
Meanwhile, the Bactrians advance through Sinkiang as well, and retake Ferghana. Bt the campaigns are, for all sides, brutal. According to Han reports from OTL, each side lost about eighty thousand men. Logistics were a nightmare as well, but the campaigns ground on.
In 122 BC, two important Xiongnu lords in the western regions of the Xiongnu empire defected to the side of the Han and Bactrians, and in 107, attacked from both sides, the Xiongnu accepted the status as tributaries of the Han.
The Han established the office of protector-General, and the general Wei Ch’ing is appointed to the office, which is based in Chadir in Central Asia.
From India, meanwhile, the Greeks advanced through Southeast Asia, while the Chinese advanced, as in OTL against the “southwestern barbarians”. The Kingdom of India and the Han Empire bordered in Yunnan by 100 BC.
But even before then, merchants and envoys had begun traveling directly between Bactria and the Han Empire. The leader of the first official embassy to the Han court in Cha’ang-an was, of course, Andromachus.
[1] They have been tentatively identified as the Huns, but this might not be accurate.
Anyone have any thoughts as to how this will go?
There's probably going to be some cross merging culture wise with the Han and the Indian Greeks. I'm not too sure about Tibet and their opinon on being surrounded. It's going to be troublesome if Bactria decide on the East being their focus of target with Persia next door.
I'm probably going to guess the following:
A) building up the navy
B) stronger Bhuddist conversion in the West
C) some dealings with the Han
D) some dealings with the West (happening after the Han "bond" becomes a whole lot stronger)
E) dealings with Tibet (maybe before C or in between C/D)
I'm probably going to guess the following:
A) building up the navy
B) stronger Bhuddist conversion in the West
C) some dealings with the Han
D) some dealings with the West (happening after the Han "bond" becomes a whole lot stronger)
E) dealings with Tibet (maybe before C or in between C/D)
Hendryk
Banned
I like the direction this is taking. I'm looking forward to the cross-cultural contact between the Greco-Bactrians and the Chinese, especially as during the first century BC the Han dynasty is still fairly open-minded about novelties. In OTL it grew increasingly conservative in its last couple of centuries of existence, with philosophical debate revolving around the same stale canonical themes until the introduction of Buddhism in the third century CE gave thinkers new questions to ponder.
A minor quibble though: for clarity's sake, it might be better to write all the Chinese names in pinyin. "Xiongnu" is the pinyin transliteration of 匈奴, but "Wu-ti" is from the now-obsolete (although still occasionally encountered in Taiwan) Wade-Giles transliterative system; in pinyin it's "Wudi". The other names you mention are also Wade-Giles: Chia I (Jia Yi), Wei Ch'ing (Wei Qing), Huo Ch'u-ping (Huo Quping), Szechwan (Sichuan). As for the Imperial capital's name, it's Chang'an (Chinese 長安, "Eternal Peace"). I'm aware it's difficult to sort it out, as older bibliographical references are more likely to use Wade-Giles, or even other less orthodox systems. Don't hesitate to ask whenever in doubt.
A minor quibble though: for clarity's sake, it might be better to write all the Chinese names in pinyin. "Xiongnu" is the pinyin transliteration of 匈奴, but "Wu-ti" is from the now-obsolete (although still occasionally encountered in Taiwan) Wade-Giles transliterative system; in pinyin it's "Wudi". The other names you mention are also Wade-Giles: Chia I (Jia Yi), Wei Ch'ing (Wei Qing), Huo Ch'u-ping (Huo Quping), Szechwan (Sichuan). As for the Imperial capital's name, it's Chang'an (Chinese 長安, "Eternal Peace"). I'm aware it's difficult to sort it out, as older bibliographical references are more likely to use Wade-Giles, or even other less orthodox systems. Don't hesitate to ask whenever in doubt.
I love how you pulled out Andromachus's dilemia about setting up the Libary, but I still the Bactria although it's Influences are very important in this TL, will not make after a couple of centuries. One, bieng, it closness the Han China...2, Bieng Smack Dab in the middle of the Central asian Barbarian Tribes.
The Western Regions, 120 BC
Andromachus looked around at the land around him, and sighed. He felt like he was an ant on a table, and felt exposed. He had grown up amidst the forests and cities of India, and now he was in an environment that was more alien to him than Egypt. He said a silent prayer to Vishnu and looked back at the rest of the caravan, which was made up of three hundred men.
“How much longer until we reach the Sericans?” he asked the guide, a Scythian [2].
The Scythian shrugged. “It depends on so many things, lke the speed of the horses, the will of the gods, the course of the war, and more.”
Andromachus gave the Scythian a dirty look. “You don’t know, do you?” The Scythian remained silent, and Andromachus cursed. The caravan rode on, until in the distance, a man spotted a cloud of dust.
The wagons moved towards the center of the caravon, and the guards on horseback looked about in dismay, and drew their swords. He heard one of the Greeks swear. “Here comes the arrows,” he said in dismay.
Andromachus turned to one of the guards. “How many Scythians are there, you think?” he asked.
The guard grunted. “Too many. At least a thousand, maybe more.”
“A thousand?” exclaimed Andromachus. “What are our options?” he asked, although he knew the answer.
Sure enough, the guard confirmed his worst fears. “They have more horses than we do, and aren’t weighed down. There are more of them. At best, we fight and die here.”
Andromachus drew his sword, and said a quick prayer to Ares. The men around him were silent, peering into the distance.
It was the Scythian who realized what was wrong first. “Their banner,” said the Scythian, “isn’t Xiongnu.”
“Some other tribe, perhaps?” asked a guard.
The Scythian’s jaw dropped. “No,” he said. “Those are soldiers for the Huo Ch’u-ping!”
”Who?” asked Andromachus.
The Scythian spat into the dust. “A general for the emperor of the China.” Andromachus cheered, and waved at the Chinese.
Unfortunately for him, the Chinese were not evidently aware that the caravan was not one of the Xiongnu, and continued to charge at them. Arrows began to fly at the caravan, one of them barely missing Andromachus. He ducked and pressed his body close to the horse, and called to the Scythian. “What now?” he asked.
“Throw down your weapons,” said the Scythian.
Andromachus blinked, and called out the Scythian’s advice to the other members of the caravan, who obeyed his command.
Unfortunately, the Han warriors were still too far away to see what was happening clearly, and fired another volley of arrows, killing at least two camels, as far as Andromachus could see.
Only when they had gotten closer did the Han soldiers stop firing. One of them approached the head of the caravan, and Andromachus and the Scythian rode out to meet him.
The Han began by barking a series of commands at the men. Andromachus looked at the Scythian. “What are they saying?” he asked.
The Scythian snorted. “They inform us that we have been taken prisoners by the warriors of the Son of Heaven, and our fate will be decided at a later date.”
Andromachus looked around, and turned to one of the Greek guards. “Where is the ambassador?” he demanded. “Where is Geminos?”
The guard pointed behind him. “He got an arrow through his chest. He might make it through, he might not.”
Andromachus cursed in the Hindi of his childhood. That meant that it would be up to him to handle the commander of the Serican soldiers.
“Come on,” he said to the Scythian. “I’m going to go take care of this.”
Andromachus rode up to the Han. “Ask them,” he told the Scythian, “who their leader is.“
The Scythian gave him a look as if he was crazy, but went ahead and called out to the Sericans.
After a bit of back and forth, a man came forward from the line of cavalry. “This is their commander,” said the Scythian. “His name is Liu Po-sheng.”
Andromachus stared directly at the man. “Tell him,” Andromachus said, “that he has attacked an embassy to his Emperor from the Kings of Bactria and India. Tell him that his attack wounded the leader of the embassy, a relative of the King of India and the King of Bactria, who even now hangs between life and death.” He looked at the Scythian. “Tell him this exactly as I said it.” Andromachus thought for a second, and raised a hand. “Wait. Also, say it loudly, so that his other men can hear it as well.”
The face of the Han soldier turned a peculiar pale color as he listened to what was said, and Andromachus smiled. “Now,” he said, “take us to your leader.”
“The Han army is organized efficiently and acts like a proper civilized army, and it is no wonder that they have held off the Scythians so well. Many of their men are armed with a repeating crossbow, which they call a Chukonu. It is only effective at fairly short distances, but it can let loose ten arrows in a short amount of time. The bow uses a lever to pull a new arrow into the bow[3]….”- Journeys through Serica, by Andromachus
The Han camp, Andromachus noted, was laid out in an organized fashion, and as clean as a camp full of armed soldiers on the fringes of civilization could be.
Andromachus’s eyes noticed that there was also a vast market on the outskirts of the camp. “Is this the capital of this province?” he asked the guard through an interpreted.
“No,” replied one of the Han soldiers smugly. “This is a market at the army’s camp here. We call it the barbarian market. Barbarians from beyond the border of the Empire come here to trade.” The Han soldier looked at the face of Andromachus, and after a moment said, “and your people too, I suppose.”
Andromachus blinked. He wasn’t sure if he had been insulted, but he remained silent. “It is,” he said at last, “impressive.” He rode past soldiers and housewives dickering over the price of cloth, and merchants selling silk, which he eyed appreciatively.
Andromachus looked at the architecture as they traveled, and felt as if he was in another world. The guard towers at the entrance to the city were intricately carved, with a curved and slanted roof. The guards there stood at attention with some of the crossbows the Sericans used, and with the red banners of their emperor flapping in the wind[4].
Andromachus watched as Huns stumbled out of taverns, rich servants wearing silk as they carried merchants through the streets, and at people who he presumed were Serican priests Acrobats were performing tricks in front of a market, and Andromachus could not help but be impressed.
If this was a border city, he wondered, what was the capital of the Sericans like?
[2] The Greeks call all nomads Scythians, although they can differentiate.
[3] This weapon was still in use as late as the 1890’s, BTW.
[4] The Han dynasty was associated with the element of fire, and therefore its color was red.
Andromachus looked around at the land around him, and sighed. He felt like he was an ant on a table, and felt exposed. He had grown up amidst the forests and cities of India, and now he was in an environment that was more alien to him than Egypt. He said a silent prayer to Vishnu and looked back at the rest of the caravan, which was made up of three hundred men.
“How much longer until we reach the Sericans?” he asked the guide, a Scythian [2].
The Scythian shrugged. “It depends on so many things, lke the speed of the horses, the will of the gods, the course of the war, and more.”
Andromachus gave the Scythian a dirty look. “You don’t know, do you?” The Scythian remained silent, and Andromachus cursed. The caravan rode on, until in the distance, a man spotted a cloud of dust.
The wagons moved towards the center of the caravon, and the guards on horseback looked about in dismay, and drew their swords. He heard one of the Greeks swear. “Here comes the arrows,” he said in dismay.
Andromachus turned to one of the guards. “How many Scythians are there, you think?” he asked.
The guard grunted. “Too many. At least a thousand, maybe more.”
“A thousand?” exclaimed Andromachus. “What are our options?” he asked, although he knew the answer.
Sure enough, the guard confirmed his worst fears. “They have more horses than we do, and aren’t weighed down. There are more of them. At best, we fight and die here.”
Andromachus drew his sword, and said a quick prayer to Ares. The men around him were silent, peering into the distance.
It was the Scythian who realized what was wrong first. “Their banner,” said the Scythian, “isn’t Xiongnu.”
“Some other tribe, perhaps?” asked a guard.
The Scythian’s jaw dropped. “No,” he said. “Those are soldiers for the Huo Ch’u-ping!”
”Who?” asked Andromachus.
The Scythian spat into the dust. “A general for the emperor of the China.” Andromachus cheered, and waved at the Chinese.
Unfortunately for him, the Chinese were not evidently aware that the caravan was not one of the Xiongnu, and continued to charge at them. Arrows began to fly at the caravan, one of them barely missing Andromachus. He ducked and pressed his body close to the horse, and called to the Scythian. “What now?” he asked.
“Throw down your weapons,” said the Scythian.
Andromachus blinked, and called out the Scythian’s advice to the other members of the caravan, who obeyed his command.
Unfortunately, the Han warriors were still too far away to see what was happening clearly, and fired another volley of arrows, killing at least two camels, as far as Andromachus could see.
Only when they had gotten closer did the Han soldiers stop firing. One of them approached the head of the caravan, and Andromachus and the Scythian rode out to meet him.
The Han began by barking a series of commands at the men. Andromachus looked at the Scythian. “What are they saying?” he asked.
The Scythian snorted. “They inform us that we have been taken prisoners by the warriors of the Son of Heaven, and our fate will be decided at a later date.”
Andromachus looked around, and turned to one of the Greek guards. “Where is the ambassador?” he demanded. “Where is Geminos?”
The guard pointed behind him. “He got an arrow through his chest. He might make it through, he might not.”
Andromachus cursed in the Hindi of his childhood. That meant that it would be up to him to handle the commander of the Serican soldiers.
“Come on,” he said to the Scythian. “I’m going to go take care of this.”
Andromachus rode up to the Han. “Ask them,” he told the Scythian, “who their leader is.“
The Scythian gave him a look as if he was crazy, but went ahead and called out to the Sericans.
After a bit of back and forth, a man came forward from the line of cavalry. “This is their commander,” said the Scythian. “His name is Liu Po-sheng.”
Andromachus stared directly at the man. “Tell him,” Andromachus said, “that he has attacked an embassy to his Emperor from the Kings of Bactria and India. Tell him that his attack wounded the leader of the embassy, a relative of the King of India and the King of Bactria, who even now hangs between life and death.” He looked at the Scythian. “Tell him this exactly as I said it.” Andromachus thought for a second, and raised a hand. “Wait. Also, say it loudly, so that his other men can hear it as well.”
The face of the Han soldier turned a peculiar pale color as he listened to what was said, and Andromachus smiled. “Now,” he said, “take us to your leader.”
“The Han army is organized efficiently and acts like a proper civilized army, and it is no wonder that they have held off the Scythians so well. Many of their men are armed with a repeating crossbow, which they call a Chukonu. It is only effective at fairly short distances, but it can let loose ten arrows in a short amount of time. The bow uses a lever to pull a new arrow into the bow[3]….”- Journeys through Serica, by Andromachus
The Han camp, Andromachus noted, was laid out in an organized fashion, and as clean as a camp full of armed soldiers on the fringes of civilization could be.
Andromachus’s eyes noticed that there was also a vast market on the outskirts of the camp. “Is this the capital of this province?” he asked the guard through an interpreted.
“No,” replied one of the Han soldiers smugly. “This is a market at the army’s camp here. We call it the barbarian market. Barbarians from beyond the border of the Empire come here to trade.” The Han soldier looked at the face of Andromachus, and after a moment said, “and your people too, I suppose.”
Andromachus blinked. He wasn’t sure if he had been insulted, but he remained silent. “It is,” he said at last, “impressive.” He rode past soldiers and housewives dickering over the price of cloth, and merchants selling silk, which he eyed appreciatively.
Andromachus looked at the architecture as they traveled, and felt as if he was in another world. The guard towers at the entrance to the city were intricately carved, with a curved and slanted roof. The guards there stood at attention with some of the crossbows the Sericans used, and with the red banners of their emperor flapping in the wind[4].
Andromachus watched as Huns stumbled out of taverns, rich servants wearing silk as they carried merchants through the streets, and at people who he presumed were Serican priests Acrobats were performing tricks in front of a market, and Andromachus could not help but be impressed.
If this was a border city, he wondered, what was the capital of the Sericans like?
[2] The Greeks call all nomads Scythians, although they can differentiate.
[3] This weapon was still in use as late as the 1890’s, BTW.
[4] The Han dynasty was associated with the element of fire, and therefore its color was red.
Hendryk
Banned
"Hsiong-nu" is Wade-Giles, and therefore to be avoided if you're going to standardize your Chinese names with pinyin.Faeelin said:
Indeed, the repeating crossbow first came in use at the end of the Warring Kingdoms period in the 200s BC. Good of you to mention it. Here's a drawing of one:Faeelin said:
Thanks; so it'd also be Wudi instead of Wu-Ti, then.
Chang’an, 120 BC
The capital, as it turned out, was to the border city as a hillfort in Bactria was to Pataliptura. The city was home to over two hundred thousand people, garbed in more silk than Andromachus had thought existed, with walls that were over three stories high. Andromachus and the other Greeks were escorted to the palace by a magnificent parade of soldiers, in gleaming armor.
The Greeks had been led along the avenue towards the palace, and Andromachus was struck by the beauty of the lands around the Imperial Palace. Bambo leaves rustled in the wind, while flowers floated past geese on artificial ponds. It reminded him of the gardens in Pataliptura, and for the first time since he had reached Serica he felt homesick.
The Imperial Palace was, of course, a marvel. Jade statues were carved with stunning beauty, and there were marble statues of horses that looked as if they were about to come to life.
Andromachus had been escorted around the palace, and he had seen marvels that were beyond compare. But after resting for two days, he now stood in the throne room before the emperor of Serica, Wu-ti.
They were led into the court of the Emperor of Serica, with great fanfare. “Introducing,” said a functionary, “ambassadors Shendu, bringing kung for the Emperor!”
The other Greeks bowed, but Andromachus raised a hand. He knew exactly what kung meant. “Pardon me,” he said in passable Chinese. “But I am afraid your official is mistaken.” He paused, and collected hi voice. “We do bring gifts, it is true, to give you honor. But we do not bring tribute. Our king is not your subject, and he does not owe you tribute.”
The courtiers began whispering to one another, as they listened to the words of Andromachus.
At last, the man in the ornate throne at the front of the court spoke. “You speak boldly,” he said at last.
“I speak,” replied Andromachus, “the truth.” He bowed before the Emperor. “ I honor you as the lord of the all of China. But I do not honor you as the Lord of all under Heaven,” he said.
There was a pause, as all eyes turned to the Emperor. “It seems to me,” he said at last, “that you managed to grasp the subtleties of our policy of dealing with foreign nations rather quickly. A Xiongnu would have taken far longer; indeed, they still do not fully grasp it. This tells me that you are either immensely wise, or you are from civilized people.”
“I honor these gifts,” said the Emperor who future generations would call Wu-Ti. “And I welcome you, as an ambassador from my brother, the King of Shendu.[6]”
The gifts were then exchanged; the emperor received camels from Bactria and horses from Ferghana, rubies and pearls from southern India, one as big as a man’s hand, gifts of jade and wine, and ivory from Africa. The Emperor, in turn, gave the ambassadors gifts of silk and gold, leaving Andromachus staggered. There was more silk given as a gift than even the King of India had!
“You honor us,” said Andromachus. “And I marvel at the wonders of your lands.”
“ The Sericans have long been the most powerful civilization in the lands which they knew of, and it is therefore not surprising that they considered themselves to be the center of the world. Traditionally, they have believed that the world was divided into five zones. The innermost zone was the royal domain, which was surrounded by the lands of nobles, which was surrounded by conquered civilized states, and then there were the zones occupied by subdued barbarians, and the lands of unsubdued barbarians were on the fringes of the world.
However, according to another belief, there are nine large continents in the world, and each continent is further divided into nine regions. Seres, in this theory, is but one of the eighty-one regions, then, that makes up the world. These two beliefs are not necessarily in conflict, for the Sericans do not believe that Seres must be at the center of the world geographically to be at its center politically.” –Journeys Through Seres
Andromachus sat down on the floor, across from Zhang Qian. “It is an honor,” he said in Chinese, “to meet you at long last. Were it not for you, I would never have visited your land of marvels.” Andromachus circumspectly surveyed the hall in Zhang Qian’s house in the Imperial capital, and found himself impressed. He even noticed several pieces of art that must have been acquired in Bactria.
Zhang Qian smiled from across the table, and replied in Greek. “Pardon me, but I seek to practice in this language.” He thought for a second, and smiled. “I suspect your people would have ended up here soon enough.” Zhang Qian looked at Andromachus for a second. “Your pardon, I pray, but you do not look like a typical Greek.”
Andromachus smirked at the understatement. “It is true that my parents were from Pataliptura, but I was brought up with the Grecian ways, as well as those of my ancestors.”
“Are you?” asked Zhang Qian. “I have observed the children of Xiongnu and Han settlers, on the frontier. They often have trouble walking between the two cultures.” He drank some of his wine. “I wonder which set of ancestors looks out for you?”
Andromachus was about to respond, but they were interrupted. Servants came in, bearing platters of food. Andromachus’s mouth watered, as the servants millet bread in front of them, to offset the spiciness of the chicken and fish. The meal was finished with slices of oranges, peaches, and dried apricots, and millet and ricewine. The conversation was mostly over relatively small matters like the climate in Chang’an, and the gardens of Pataliptura.
Zhang Qian politely observed Andromachus struggling with chopsticks. “If you wish,” he said, “I could have servants bring you a knife and spoon.”
Andromachus struggled with the two sticks. “Thank you,” he said as he picked up a piece of chicken, “but I can manage.” He carefully brought the piece up to his mouth. “You know, it’s a pity these would never catch on amongst the Greeks. They’d work quite well with much of what they eat.”
“What point?” asked Andromachus. “Much of their food is in the form of porridge or bread, and why would you use them for that?”
“True,” said Zhang Qian, “but we use spoons and eat porridge as well, and we still use them.”
“Yes,” replied Andromachus, “but you rarely eat bread. And there’s another reason,” he said. “It is a Greek custom to eat with your fingers, as you know from your travels.” He raised his hand. “I know that you do not necessarily approve of it, but you will agree it is a custom.”
“Consider,” said Andromachus, “that it is considered rude to take an excessive amount of the dainties from the table. It is already joked about how gluttons will train their fingers to tolerate heat, and now you will propose to give them a way to take hot choice foods immediately?”
Zhang looked embarrassed for a moment. “Ah,” he said at last. “Now I know why I received odd looks when I ate with chopsticks in Bactria and Shendu.
The meal continued genially, and Andromachus listened to the music with interest. When they reached dessert however, Zhang raised an interesting issue. “Are you aware,” he asked, “of the significance of the status that the Emperor gave your king?”
Andromachus shrugged. “I am aware, generally, that your Emperor views himself, in theory, as the ruler of the world. But that’s not different than the claims made by various kings in India or the claims of the Persians, is it?”
Zhang Qian chewed on a dried apricot. “Perhaps, perhaps not. But your states were in contact with each other for centuries; China has been the entire world, for as far as we can remember. We had our legends of western kingdoms, of course, but they were always separated from us by the horse tribes, and therefore not quite real.”
“In fact,” said Zhang Qian, “when I returned many considered me a liar. The idea of vast lands, full of rich and prosperous cities outside of China was considered a joke by some. If it had not been for the gifts of your king, I suspect even the Emperor would have disbelieved me.”
Andromachus laughed. “We said the same thing about you, actually. Nothing hammers the existence of neighbors home like thousands of warriors, eh?”
Zhang Qian snorted. “True enough, true enough.” He changed the subject yet again, and Andromachus noted that it was Zhang, and not he, who was leading the conversation. “I have head that you are to remain in Chang’an for years. How do you feel about this?”
Andromachus shrugged. “I must confess, I will miss my home terribly. But I have my duty, and,” he shrugged meditatively, “how many men are lucky enough to live in China?”
He smiled. “Aside from the several million who live here, of course. Still,” he said, “I wish I could return home. But we must live with the world the gods gave us, not the world we wish we had.”
Zhang took another sip of tea, and looked at one of the servants, who was playing an instrument quietly.
“Autumn wind rises: white clouds fly.
Grass and trees wither: geese go south.
Orchids all in bloom: chrysanthemums smell sweet.
I think of my lovely lady: I never can forget.
Floating-pagoda boat crosses Fen River.
Across the mid-stream white waves rise;
Flute and drum keep time to sound of rowers' song;
Amidst revel and feasting, sad thoughts come;
Youth's years how few! Age how sure!”
Andromachus listened to the words, and took a moment to translate them into Greek. “What a sad poem,” he said at last. “Did you write it?”
Zhang finished his cup of mullet wine. “No,” he said. “It was written by the emperor. You will find, I think, that he is wiser than he seems.”
“The Sericans place great value on divination, often using lines and figures to attempt to determine the future. One particularly interesting method uses what the Sericans call a “south-controlling spoon” The diviner uses a board consisting of two plates. There is a lower square, which symbolizes the earth, and a square on top of it, which represents the heavens. The upper plate revolves on a central pivot within a figure of a bear….
The Sericans possess a belief system which in many ways is similar to Stoicism. They believe in the theory of Tao, or the way.
The tao, as the Sericans call it, refers to single order of nature whose mind and intentions underlie all aspects of the world, much as God underlies the world in the Stoic philosophy. They hold that men should exercise care to act in accord with the tao, the natural order, and that they may therefore achieve a state of calm and happiness.
Unlike the Stoics, however, they believe that man is not necessarily the most important being in existence, but instead views himself as the most important creature.
This is a very dubious argument, or so it seems to me. One would acknowledge, of course, that all animals have pneuma; but how could it not be agreed that it is more highly organized in man, which is capable of rational thought, than in a plant?
For that matter, the Taoists seem to believe that men should withdraw from their community, a virtue which they call wuwei. This seems, however, to be an attitude that is analogous to the foolish beliefs of Epicureans [6]. But it must be acknowledged that this is not necessarily the case; they are prepared to allow a certain amount of intervention in the affairs of state. But they believe that the state should not intervene heavily in the affairs of man, and, indeed, their founder wrote that:
Why are people starving?
Because the rulers eat up the money in taxes.
Therefore the people are starving.
Why are the people rebellious?
Because the rulers interfere too much.
Therefore they are rebellious.
Why do people think so little of death?
Because the rulers demand too much of life.
Therefore the people take life lightly.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.
These views have most recently been espoused by a philosopher of the Sericans known as Huang-lao, the proper ruler should seek to avoid interfering in the lives of his people as much as possible, and if he acts in accordance with nature, he will be a good ruler.
The views of Taoists are in great contrast to the beliefs of the Serican philosopher Kong Fuzi, who…
”- Andromachus, The Serican Discources
[4] The Han dynasty was associated with the element of fire, and therefore its banners should be red. However, the Ch’in were associated with the element of water, and the Han dynasty did not adopt fire as its element until around 104 BC, using the element of the Ch’in instead.
[5] This is a significant concession, but it’s not without precedent. The khan of the Xiongnu was held, under duress, to be the equal of the Son of Heaven.
[6] Andromachus is only half right; the withdrawl from the world that’s espoused by Taoists is somewhat similar to Epicureanism, but it’s hardly unique to them.
Chang’an, 120 BC
The capital, as it turned out, was to the border city as a hillfort in Bactria was to Pataliptura. The city was home to over two hundred thousand people, garbed in more silk than Andromachus had thought existed, with walls that were over three stories high. Andromachus and the other Greeks were escorted to the palace by a magnificent parade of soldiers, in gleaming armor.
The Greeks had been led along the avenue towards the palace, and Andromachus was struck by the beauty of the lands around the Imperial Palace. Bambo leaves rustled in the wind, while flowers floated past geese on artificial ponds. It reminded him of the gardens in Pataliptura, and for the first time since he had reached Serica he felt homesick.
The Imperial Palace was, of course, a marvel. Jade statues were carved with stunning beauty, and there were marble statues of horses that looked as if they were about to come to life.
Andromachus had been escorted around the palace, and he had seen marvels that were beyond compare. But after resting for two days, he now stood in the throne room before the emperor of Serica, Wu-ti.
They were led into the court of the Emperor of Serica, with great fanfare. “Introducing,” said a functionary, “ambassadors Shendu, bringing kung for the Emperor!”
The other Greeks bowed, but Andromachus raised a hand. He knew exactly what kung meant. “Pardon me,” he said in passable Chinese. “But I am afraid your official is mistaken.” He paused, and collected hi voice. “We do bring gifts, it is true, to give you honor. But we do not bring tribute. Our king is not your subject, and he does not owe you tribute.”
The courtiers began whispering to one another, as they listened to the words of Andromachus.
At last, the man in the ornate throne at the front of the court spoke. “You speak boldly,” he said at last.
“I speak,” replied Andromachus, “the truth.” He bowed before the Emperor. “ I honor you as the lord of the all of China. But I do not honor you as the Lord of all under Heaven,” he said.
There was a pause, as all eyes turned to the Emperor. “It seems to me,” he said at last, “that you managed to grasp the subtleties of our policy of dealing with foreign nations rather quickly. A Xiongnu would have taken far longer; indeed, they still do not fully grasp it. This tells me that you are either immensely wise, or you are from civilized people.”
“I honor these gifts,” said the Emperor who future generations would call Wu-Ti. “And I welcome you, as an ambassador from my brother, the King of Shendu.[6]”
The gifts were then exchanged; the emperor received camels from Bactria and horses from Ferghana, rubies and pearls from southern India, one as big as a man’s hand, gifts of jade and wine, and ivory from Africa. The Emperor, in turn, gave the ambassadors gifts of silk and gold, leaving Andromachus staggered. There was more silk given as a gift than even the King of India had!
“You honor us,” said Andromachus. “And I marvel at the wonders of your lands.”
“ The Sericans have long been the most powerful civilization in the lands which they knew of, and it is therefore not surprising that they considered themselves to be the center of the world. Traditionally, they have believed that the world was divided into five zones. The innermost zone was the royal domain, which was surrounded by the lands of nobles, which was surrounded by conquered civilized states, and then there were the zones occupied by subdued barbarians, and the lands of unsubdued barbarians were on the fringes of the world.
However, according to another belief, there are nine large continents in the world, and each continent is further divided into nine regions. Seres, in this theory, is but one of the eighty-one regions, then, that makes up the world. These two beliefs are not necessarily in conflict, for the Sericans do not believe that Seres must be at the center of the world geographically to be at its center politically.” –Journeys Through Seres
Andromachus sat down on the floor, across from Zhang Qian. “It is an honor,” he said in Chinese, “to meet you at long last. Were it not for you, I would never have visited your land of marvels.” Andromachus circumspectly surveyed the hall in Zhang Qian’s house in the Imperial capital, and found himself impressed. He even noticed several pieces of art that must have been acquired in Bactria.
Zhang Qian smiled from across the table, and replied in Greek. “Pardon me, but I seek to practice in this language.” He thought for a second, and smiled. “I suspect your people would have ended up here soon enough.” Zhang Qian looked at Andromachus for a second. “Your pardon, I pray, but you do not look like a typical Greek.”
Andromachus smirked at the understatement. “It is true that my parents were from Pataliptura, but I was brought up with the Grecian ways, as well as those of my ancestors.”
“Are you?” asked Zhang Qian. “I have observed the children of Xiongnu and Han settlers, on the frontier. They often have trouble walking between the two cultures.” He drank some of his wine. “I wonder which set of ancestors looks out for you?”
Andromachus was about to respond, but they were interrupted. Servants came in, bearing platters of food. Andromachus’s mouth watered, as the servants millet bread in front of them, to offset the spiciness of the chicken and fish. The meal was finished with slices of oranges, peaches, and dried apricots, and millet and ricewine. The conversation was mostly over relatively small matters like the climate in Chang’an, and the gardens of Pataliptura.
Zhang Qian politely observed Andromachus struggling with chopsticks. “If you wish,” he said, “I could have servants bring you a knife and spoon.”
Andromachus struggled with the two sticks. “Thank you,” he said as he picked up a piece of chicken, “but I can manage.” He carefully brought the piece up to his mouth. “You know, it’s a pity these would never catch on amongst the Greeks. They’d work quite well with much of what they eat.”
“What point?” asked Andromachus. “Much of their food is in the form of porridge or bread, and why would you use them for that?”
“True,” said Zhang Qian, “but we use spoons and eat porridge as well, and we still use them.”
“Yes,” replied Andromachus, “but you rarely eat bread. And there’s another reason,” he said. “It is a Greek custom to eat with your fingers, as you know from your travels.” He raised his hand. “I know that you do not necessarily approve of it, but you will agree it is a custom.”
“Consider,” said Andromachus, “that it is considered rude to take an excessive amount of the dainties from the table. It is already joked about how gluttons will train their fingers to tolerate heat, and now you will propose to give them a way to take hot choice foods immediately?”
Zhang looked embarrassed for a moment. “Ah,” he said at last. “Now I know why I received odd looks when I ate with chopsticks in Bactria and Shendu.
The meal continued genially, and Andromachus listened to the music with interest. When they reached dessert however, Zhang raised an interesting issue. “Are you aware,” he asked, “of the significance of the status that the Emperor gave your king?”
Andromachus shrugged. “I am aware, generally, that your Emperor views himself, in theory, as the ruler of the world. But that’s not different than the claims made by various kings in India or the claims of the Persians, is it?”
Zhang Qian chewed on a dried apricot. “Perhaps, perhaps not. But your states were in contact with each other for centuries; China has been the entire world, for as far as we can remember. We had our legends of western kingdoms, of course, but they were always separated from us by the horse tribes, and therefore not quite real.”
“In fact,” said Zhang Qian, “when I returned many considered me a liar. The idea of vast lands, full of rich and prosperous cities outside of China was considered a joke by some. If it had not been for the gifts of your king, I suspect even the Emperor would have disbelieved me.”
Andromachus laughed. “We said the same thing about you, actually. Nothing hammers the existence of neighbors home like thousands of warriors, eh?”
Zhang Qian snorted. “True enough, true enough.” He changed the subject yet again, and Andromachus noted that it was Zhang, and not he, who was leading the conversation. “I have head that you are to remain in Chang’an for years. How do you feel about this?”
Andromachus shrugged. “I must confess, I will miss my home terribly. But I have my duty, and,” he shrugged meditatively, “how many men are lucky enough to live in China?”
He smiled. “Aside from the several million who live here, of course. Still,” he said, “I wish I could return home. But we must live with the world the gods gave us, not the world we wish we had.”
Zhang took another sip of tea, and looked at one of the servants, who was playing an instrument quietly.
“Autumn wind rises: white clouds fly.
Grass and trees wither: geese go south.
Orchids all in bloom: chrysanthemums smell sweet.
I think of my lovely lady: I never can forget.
Floating-pagoda boat crosses Fen River.
Across the mid-stream white waves rise;
Flute and drum keep time to sound of rowers' song;
Amidst revel and feasting, sad thoughts come;
Youth's years how few! Age how sure!”
Andromachus listened to the words, and took a moment to translate them into Greek. “What a sad poem,” he said at last. “Did you write it?”
Zhang finished his cup of mullet wine. “No,” he said. “It was written by the emperor. You will find, I think, that he is wiser than he seems.”
“The Sericans place great value on divination, often using lines and figures to attempt to determine the future. One particularly interesting method uses what the Sericans call a “south-controlling spoon” The diviner uses a board consisting of two plates. There is a lower square, which symbolizes the earth, and a square on top of it, which represents the heavens. The upper plate revolves on a central pivot within a figure of a bear….
The Sericans possess a belief system which in many ways is similar to Stoicism. They believe in the theory of Tao, or the way.
The tao, as the Sericans call it, refers to single order of nature whose mind and intentions underlie all aspects of the world, much as God underlies the world in the Stoic philosophy. They hold that men should exercise care to act in accord with the tao, the natural order, and that they may therefore achieve a state of calm and happiness.
Unlike the Stoics, however, they believe that man is not necessarily the most important being in existence, but instead views himself as the most important creature.
This is a very dubious argument, or so it seems to me. One would acknowledge, of course, that all animals have pneuma; but how could it not be agreed that it is more highly organized in man, which is capable of rational thought, than in a plant?
For that matter, the Taoists seem to believe that men should withdraw from their community, a virtue which they call wuwei. This seems, however, to be an attitude that is analogous to the foolish beliefs of Epicureans [6]. But it must be acknowledged that this is not necessarily the case; they are prepared to allow a certain amount of intervention in the affairs of state. But they believe that the state should not intervene heavily in the affairs of man, and, indeed, their founder wrote that:
Why are people starving?
Because the rulers eat up the money in taxes.
Therefore the people are starving.
Why are the people rebellious?
Because the rulers interfere too much.
Therefore they are rebellious.
Why do people think so little of death?
Because the rulers demand too much of life.
Therefore the people take life lightly.
Having to live on, one knows better than to value life too much.
These views have most recently been espoused by a philosopher of the Sericans known as Huang-lao, the proper ruler should seek to avoid interfering in the lives of his people as much as possible, and if he acts in accordance with nature, he will be a good ruler.
The views of Taoists are in great contrast to the beliefs of the Serican philosopher Kong Fuzi, who…
”- Andromachus, The Serican Discources
[4] The Han dynasty was associated with the element of fire, and therefore its banners should be red. However, the Ch’in were associated with the element of water, and the Han dynasty did not adopt fire as its element until around 104 BC, using the element of the Ch’in instead.
[5] This is a significant concession, but it’s not without precedent. The khan of the Xiongnu was held, under duress, to be the equal of the Son of Heaven.
[6] Andromachus is only half right; the withdrawl from the world that’s espoused by Taoists is somewhat similar to Epicureanism, but it’s hardly unique to them.