Answers for Milinda

[Faeelin]

We're going to have to discuss this in greater length once your narrative gets to that point. Right now, as a preamble, what I can say is that, in OTL, Buddhism first gained a toehold in China during the 1st century CE, as the Han dynasty was slowly beginning to decline, and spread in a big way between the 3rd and the 8th centuries.

Mhm. The thing is, it was Mahayana Buddhism that spread, which isn't around yet.

It might be developed bit earlier than OTL, or I might simply adopt one of the other schools around this time. I think the Mahasanghika school might be very useful for this.

(If you have no idea what I'm talking about, don't worry. Neither did I before I started researching it, and I'll explain it as I go).

This spread was facilitated by the crisis of the Confucian ideology and traditional Taoism, which had become increasingly rigid, formalized systems due to their instrumentalization by the Han power structure; and it also benefited from the lack of a centralized authority during most of that period. Once the political apparatus was firmly centralized once again, at the height of the Tang dynasty in the 8th century, the growth of Buddhism was halted. So if you want to seriously alter the history of the spread of Buddhism in China, my suggestion is to start early, before the Han dynasty is firmly in control and things are still in a state of flux. I don't think a new religion would have a real chance during the reign of the First Emperor (221-203 BC), except as an underground movement, considering the proto-totalitarian policies of thought control he implemented.

Hmm. I was planning on having it arrive in the early 1st century BC as trade between India, Bactria, and China picks up speed.

Then there is the question of Chinese alterations of Buddhist dogma, but whatever the TL, those are unlikely to become an issue for the first couple of centuries. I'll develop the topic when the need arises.

Fine by me.

 

[Faeelin]

Okay, guys, I have a question.

In the battle against Rome, the Macedonians under Perseus almost had a triumphant victory at Pydna.

Aemilius Paullus, there was initial skrirmishing. The charge initially devastated the Roman legions, but the legionaries moved in and got between the hoplites, the Romans won, and as I stated, the monarchy was abolished.

Would the addition of a few elephants from the Seleucids have made a different?

 

[Historico]

Okay, guys, I have a question.

In the battle against Rome, the Macedonians under Perseus almost had a triumphant victory at Pydna.

Aemilius Paullus, there was initial skrirmishing. The charge initially devastated the Roman legions, but the legionaries moved in and got between the hoplites, the Romans won, and as I stated, the monarchy was abolished.

Would the addition of a few elephants from the Seleucids have made a different?

Probably so, Look how badly the Romans did against the Elephants in the Punic Wars, They could diminish the Roman Spirits and just crush the Legionares outright. Persus could march in and Raze the city of Rome to the Ground...Massacering the Male Population and selling the Women and Children into slavery.(The Romans Did it to Carthage, and Macedon did it to Tyre)

An Macedonian Dominated Italy would have some powerful reprecutions, and Stronger Ptolemiec Empire that could expand into Africa and tap into the valuable Gold Mines of the South. What About the Celts...Could they finally unite without the Romans on their back?

 

[Faeelin]

“The king said: "When you just spoke of "the other wholesome dharmas", which ones did you mean?"
"I meant morality, faith, vigor, mindfulness, and concentration."
"And what is the mark of morality?"
"Morality has the mark of providing a basis for all wholesome dharmas, whatever they may be. When based on morality, all the wholesome dharmas will not dwindle away."
"Give me an illustration."
"As all plants and animals which increase, grow, and prosper, do so with the earth as their support, with the earth as their basis, just so the Yogin, with morality as his support, with morality as his basis, develops the five cardinal virtues, i.e. the cardinal virtues of faith, vigor, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom." – Questions of King Milinda
Many of you are doubtless wondering what Buddhism amongst the Indian Greeks looked like, and it is a fair question.
It is worth noting a couple of things, of course. In traditional Buddhism in the period before the 2nd century BC, it was uncommon to portray images of the Buddha. Yet King Menander of our timeline had no problem issuing coins with the figure of Buddha, which implies that the vast majority of Greek and native Buddhists in his realm had no objections to it. Also in this period Hellenistic artists began to carve images of Buddha [4], something which was definitely not traditional in Buddhist art prior to this point.
Now, Buddhism, it is important to note, has a variety of competing schools. The two most famous are the Hinayana, and Mahayanist schools, the so-called “Lesser Vehicle” and the “Greater Vehicle.” Mahayana Buddhism differs from Hinayana, and its main school, Theravada, Buddhism in several important respects. Mahayanan Buddhism, for instance, believes that enlightenment is open to all, whereas Theravada Buddhism believed that only monks could truly achieve enlightenment, and the process would take place over generations. Mahayana Buddhism, however, took the view that every individual had the potential to achieve enlightenment within their lifetime.
Mahayana Buddhists also focused on developing bodhicitta, which can best be described as a mental state of enlightenment. In bodhicitta, However, one does not attempt to achieve enlightenment for themselves, but for all beings. Compassion is also crucial in Mahayan Buddhism; while it is improtant in Theravada Buddhism as well, Mahayana Buddhism is unique in that it believes that merit can be transferred from one person to another. Therefore, a wealthy person could donate money to monks and receive merit in return.
In the traditional Hinayana schools, Enlightenment was only for the select few; but in Mahayana Buddhism, Enlightenment can be achieved for many. It is no wonder, then, that Mahayana Buddhism made converts across Central Asia, China, and Japan.
What did the Greek Buddhists believe? I think that this can best be explained by a quote from King Milinda:
“And Nagasena continued: "But, in any case, your majesty, all those who as householders, living in a home and in the enjoyment of sensuous pleasures, realize the peace of Nirvana, the highest good, they have all been trained in their former lives in the thirteen Austere Practices peculiar to monks, and through them they have laid the foundations for their present sanctity. It is because then they had purified their conduct and behavior by means of them, that now even as householders, living in a home and in the enjoyment of sense-pleasures, they can realize the peace of Nirvana, the highest good. “
This certainly does not match the traditional Hinayana view of Buddhism.
We must also take into account that Mahayana Buddhism, while it was only formalized after the 4th Buddhist Council in the beginning of the 2nd Century AD, began under a Kushan king Kaniska, who in any case only confirmed the schism from the Hinayana schools. Furthermore, Kaniska ruled over the classical Greco-Bactrian heartland, which suggests that many of these ideas had been present in Bactria for centuries.
It is also worth noting that Asoka himself was responsible for many of the influences that led to the development of Mahayana Buddhism. The idea that he owed a debt to all beings bears a certain resemblance to the ideas of the Mahayanas,for instance.

There was also a controversy raging at the time over whether or not Buddha had existed as a human being, or whether or not Buddha had been a man. The Theravadin could not imagine a Buddha without human and earthly relations. But it was increasingly common to view the Buddha as a sort of supernatural entity.

Attempts to reconcile the two finally led to the theory of the Sarvastivadas. According to them, what happened in the life of the Buddha was not predetermined by cosmic law or spiritual order, but proceeded out of the Buddha’s free will. In this school, the Buddha went through a time on Earth, but he already knew everything. In the Sarvastivada story, the boy Buddha is sent to school, but the schoolmaster prostrates himself before his divine pupil. When the young Buddha encounters the four signs: the dead man, the sick man, the aged man, and a holy man, the story states that the Buddha already knew suffering, for it had been the realization of an omniscient mind.

The Buddha becomes a supreme being, who for countless centuries have watched mankind. His rare appearance, and his death, is only a clever device which he uses to instruct mankind.

Which view did the Greeks have? This is a very good question, but given, once again, that Mahayan Buddhism, which believed in the Buddha as being an omnipotent being who took physical form, and that reliefs portray Zeus, king of the gods, attending Buddha, I think it’s clear that they viewed Buddha as a physical manifestation of an omnipotent being.

It is clear, then, that by the middle of the 2nd century BC, the rough ideas that would develop into Mahayana Buddhism were in place, and I therefore find it plausible that King Menander, the successor to Demetrius, can convene the 4th Buddhist Council, and develop the doctrines of the Greater Vehicle, bringing millions to salvation.

Thoughts?



[4] Although these statues tended to portray Buddha as looking remarkably similar to Apollo.

 

[Faeelin]

Correction:

Many of you are doubtless wondering what Buddhism amongst the Indian Greeks looked like, and it is a fair question.

It is worth noting a couple of things, of course. In traditional Buddhism in the period before the 2nd century BC, it was uncommon to portray images of the Buddha. Yet King Menander of our timeline had no problem issuing coins with the figure of Buddha, which implies that the vast majority of Greek and native Buddhists in his realm had no objections to it. Also in this period Hellenistic artists began to carve images of Buddha [4], something which was definitely not traditional in Buddhist art prior to this point.

Now, Buddhism, it is important to note, has a variety of competing schools. The two most famous are the Hinayana, and Mahayanist schools, the so-called “Lesser Vehicle” and the “Greater Vehicle.” Mahayana Buddhism differs from Hinayana, and its main school, Theravada, Buddhism in several important respects. Mahayanan Buddhism, for instance, believes that enlightenment is open to all, whereas Theravada Buddhism believed that only monks could truly achieve enlightenment, and the process would take place over generations. Mahayana Buddhism, however, took the view that every individual had the potential to achieve enlightenment within their lifetime.
Mahayana Buddhists also focused on developing bodhicitta, which can best be described as a mental state of enlightenment.

In bodhicitta, However, one does not attempt to achieve enlightenment for themselves, but for all beings. Compassion is also crucial in Mahayan Buddhism; while it is improtant in Theravada Buddhism as well, Mahayana Buddhism is unique in that it believes that merit can be transferred from one person to another. Therefore, a wealthy person could donate money to monks and receive merit in return.

In the traditional Hinayana schools, Enlightenment was only for the select few; but in Mahayana Buddhism, Enlightenment can be achieved for many. It is no wonder, then, that Mahayana Buddhism made converts across Central Asia, China, and Japan.

What did the Greek Buddhists believe? I think that this can best be explained by a quote from King Milinda:

“And Nagasena continued: "But, in any case, your majesty, all those who as householders, living in a home and in the enjoyment of sensuous pleasures, realize the peace of Nirvana, the highest good, they have all been trained in their former lives in the thirteen Austere Practices peculiar to monks, and through them they have laid the foundations for their present sanctity. It is because then they had purified their conduct and behavior by means of them, that now even as householders, living in a home and in the enjoyment of sense-pleasures, they can realize the peace of Nirvana, the highest good. “
This certainly does not match the traditional Hinayana view of Buddhism. The idea that any person could “realize the peace of Nirvana” is unique to Mahayana Buddhism, whereas Theravada Buddhism thought that only arhats, Buddhist saints, could achieve it.

We must also take into account that Mahayana Buddhism, wh
ile it was only formalized after the 4th Buddhist Council in the beginning of the 2nd Century AD, began under a Kushan king Kaniska, who in any case only confirmed the schism from the Hinayana schools. Furthermore, Kaniska ruled over the classical Greco-Bactrian heartland, which suggests that many of these ideas had been present in Bactria for centuries.
It is also worth noting that Asoka himself was responsible for many of the influences that led to the development of Mahayana Buddhism. The idea that he owed a debt to all beings bears a certain resemblance to the ideas of the Mahayanas,for instance.

On the other hand…. while it certainly might have been a proto-Mahayanism, it was certainly not Mahayanism as it would be at the time of Kaniska. They would likely have been considered Mahasanghikas, “The Great Assemblyites”. The Mahasanghikas claimed to be truer to the original teachings than the Theravada, and held that the Buddha was perfectly pure. He was a being of boundless power and immortal life, and educated living beings tirelessly. But more importantly, they admitted lay followers and non-arhant monks to their councils, and were more sensitive to lay religions; an attitude more fitting, I think, with that expressed by King Milinda.



The other school that was active in Gandhara and near Maratha at this time were the Sarvastivadins, roughly translated as the “All-is-ists”. The Sarvastivadin position was quite conventional, save for one viewpoint. They held that all things actually do exist, and are not mere reflections. This religion would ultimately decrease in significance, but it would leave its mark. In fact the school’s teachings, that the bodhisattva fulfills six perfections: morality, genersotiy, patience, vigor, meditation, and wisdom, would become part of the teachings of the Yavana school of Buddhism.

Thoughts?

[4] Although these statues tended to portray Buddha as looking remarkably similar to Apollo.

 

[G.Bone]

It sounds very much akin to Transcendentalism, although less concentrated on nature as physical trees, plants, and rocks. It sounds very appealing.

I should add that this TL 'feels' akin to an individual's own philosophy on religious type aspects rather than the history itself. As it was stated earlier on, it is achieving that goal that you stated earlier on, but it is working (in it's own unique way) as an alt-hist 'story'.

 

[Faeelin]

It sounds very much akin to Transcendentalism, although less concentrated on nature as physical trees, plants, and rocks. It sounds very appealing.

It is, err, historical Buddhism.

I should add that this TL 'feels' akin to an individual's own philosophy on religious type aspects rather than the history itself. As it was stated earlier on, it is achieving that goal that you stated earlier on, but it is working (in it's own unique way) as an alt-hist 'story'.

Umm. This doesn't make any sense. Could you explain?

 

[Faeelin]

By 165 BC, things seemed to have calmed down in the Hellenistic world. In 165 BC Seleucus IV marched against Artaxias, king of Armenia, and forced the ruler to acknowledge the supremacy of the Seleucid. He adopted the title used by the Bactrians, and called himself, after his victories against the Parthians and Armenians, “The Savior of Asia”. In Egypt, Ptolemy VI ascended to the throne in 168 BC, and took his sister Cleopatra II as his wife. But the fact remained that after Pydna, the Romans had eliminated one of the great powers of the era. With Macedon gone, only The Seleucids and Ptolemies remained.

Seleucus IV’s reign witnessed a marked revival, at least initially, in the fortunes of the Seleucids[1]. Seleucus IV had been working hard to make allies and friends in the Aegean, Asia Minor, and Greece, and after the subjugation of Parthia, felt that his rear was secure enough of focus on the Mediterranean.

Unfortunately for Seleucus, there is a power standing in his path, which will not let him restore the Seleucids to their heights of glory and power. That power is of course the Republic of Rome, by this point the mistress of the Mediterranean.

After the Battle of Magnesia, the Romans had forced a series of heavy indemnities upon the Seleucids, and restricted their military by forbidding them war elephants. But in the decades since then the Seleucids had rebuilt, and seemed as strong as they had ever been before.

There are several key differences in the personality of Seleucus IV and Antiochus IV, the OTL ruler during this period. Although many had considered Antiochus IV to be a madman, he was actually a statesman of the highest caliber, reviving Seleucid influence and power. But even more crucially, he had spent years in Rome and had had a generally pro-Roman attitude. He possessed an understanding of Roman abilities, and when faced with a threat of war from Rome, he knew enough to back down.

His elder brother, Seleucus IV, does not. It is this attitude that will doom the Hellenistic world [2].

Before I discuss the downfall of the Seleucids, it’s worth taking a brief digression to explain the state of the Roman Empire at this point. Rome’s provincia, provinces, only included Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica, and Spain. The provincial are territories that are directly under Roman rule, and do not look that impressive on a map. But there is another territory thatmust be taken into account: the imperium, the lands which Rome exercises supremacy over. By the 180s, the Greek Historian Polybius can accurately state that rome’s imperium extended to Asia Minor, North Africa, and Spain. Looking at a map, Rome’s explosion in the closing decades of the 2nd century BC in the Eastern Mediterranean looks dramatic; but if you take into account the fact that Rome had dominated this area for years, it is not that surprising. It is therefore much almost impossible to abort Roman hegemony over the Hellenistic world by this point, because it already existed.

In any case, back to the Seleucid War. It began, as wars are wont to do, in Egypt. Ptolemy VI and his younger brother, Ptolemy VIII Euergetes (who we’ll henceforth call Euergetes to avoid confusion) rule Egypt together as coregents, along with their sister Cleopatra II, who was married to Ptolemy VI. This uneasy triad dominated Egypt; but as Homer might have told them, “Multiple rule is no good.” The two family was torn by dissent and rivalry, and their relationship soon became a farce.

Euergetes and Cleopatra II launched a coup in 165 BC, and Ptolemy VI was forced to flee[3]. He fled to the Seleucid Empire, and arrived in the capital of his uncle, Seleucia. In a dramatic audience in which he displayed knife wounds he claimed to suffer at the hands of their assassins, he implored Seleucus to aid him in restoring him to the throne.

Ever willing to oblige by his nephew, and “full of righteous fury at the gross injustices wrought by the wicked deeds of Euergetes”, and in 163 moved into Egypt. By 162 he had taken all of Egypt save for Alexandria, when poor Ptolemy VI died of a surfeit of figs [4]. Wasting no time, Seleucus IV declared himself King of Egypt and claimed that Euergetes had forfeited his right to the throne because of his vile actions towards his brother. After a siege of several months, Seleucus IV entered Alexandria, becoming the first, and last, Seleucid monarch of Egypt.




[1] Coinage from the reign of Antiochus IV, who ruled in this period OTL, are of a better quality than those from immediately after Pydna, as well as much more common.

[2] Well, a bit sooner than OTL.

[3] According to a history from this period, the poor king was originally planning on sailing to Rome, but the only ship he could find was one that was heading for Tarsus

[4] Or poison, depending on which sources you read.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I happen to agree with you; Barbarians will hit this state. But if it's strong and vibrant, there's no reason they couldn't be assimilated, as barbarians were time and time again.

This seems awfully naive of you. I can think of thousands of reasons why barbarians won't be assimilated. Just taking the Mongols, they weren't terribly interested in being assimilated, not leaving stone upon stone, and Bactia is just too small to have any hope of sedentarizing them, or any other large horde from Inner Asia. Also, few states manage to remain strong and vibrant at every point they are attacked for 1,000 years, and people tend to watch for the gaps. Is it merely coincidence that Islam swept away the Roman Empire and Persia, when they would have been crushed just ten years earlier or later? Or was it the weakness of those states that invited invasion?

Your Bactria is certain to have its ups and downs, and in one of the downs something nasty is going to come along and smeck it. The location is just too crappy.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

And go to bed. You shouldn't be up this late on a school night.

 

[Historico]

Great Installment Faelin...So the Parthians are basically sandwiched between the Secluids and and the Bactrians.

 

[Faeelin]

And go to bed. You shouldn't be up this late on a school night.

You don't remember being up past 11 in college on a weeknight?

Damn, you are old.

 

[Faeelin]

This seems awfully naive of you. I can think of thousands of reasons why barbarians won't be assimilated. Just taking the Mongols, they weren't terribly interested in being assimilated, not leaving stone upon stone, and Bactia is just too small to have any hope of sedentarizing them, or any other large horde from Inner Asia.

Oh, don't worry, Bactria will fall, probably in the 1st Century AD.

Your Bactria is certain to have its ups and downs, and in one of the downs something nasty is going to come along and smeck it. The location is just too crappy.

Mhm. Although given what's coming up, the Seleucids might very well fall first.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

Oh, don't worry, Bactria will fall, probably in the 1st Century AD.




Mhm. Although given what's coming up, the Seleucids might very well fall first.

Well, in any case, a spectacular, interesting, and well-thought-out TL.

 

[Faeelin]

Well, in any case, a spectacular, interesting, and well-thought-out TL.

Thanks. I wanted to take a look at something different.

 

[Faeelin]

Euergetes and Cleopatra fled to Rome, where the news from Egypt was greeted with dismay and horror. The Senate could not, however, decide what to do.

The Senate was divided into two factions. One faction felt that it was dangerous for Rome to become involved in such foreign struggles that did not directly threaten Rome. Loud voices in the Senate argued that it was foolish to go to war for “a man who had betrayed his brother and now complained that he was punished for it.” On the other hand, another faction, composed of those who had extensive investments in the East and in trade, were justifiably concerned about a resurgence in Seleucid power; and there were those who thought a short victorious war would be an easy chance to win profit. So it was that in 161 BC, after a prolonged debate, the Senate and People of the Republic of Rome sent a warning to Seleucus IV. He was to abandon Egypt, or else find himself at war with the Roman Empire.

Seleucus IV, however, has been laying plans. In 160 BC a pretender to the Macedonian throne appeared, pretending to be the half-brother of the last Macedonian king, Demetrius. He struck light a bolt of lightning and defeated Roman forces in Macedonia, and even advanced into Thessaly. Meanwhile, Kingdom of Pergamum, encompassing all of Western Anatolia, acted incredibly lukewarm given that it was supposedly a Roman ally, and when an army of the Seleucus advanced into the kingdom in 160 BC, King Eumenes defected to his cause. In a stroke it seemed as if the Seleucids had restored the Empire to its height under Antiochus III, and the Treaty of Magnesia was discarded like a scrap of papyrus [4].

The tide quickly turned against the Seleucids, however. Two legions defeated the pretender Demetrius at, appropriately enough, Pydna, and legions under the command of Sciopio Nasica Corculum, who instituted military rule over Macedonia. Euergetes landed in Egypt with a Roman force of three legions, and by 158 BC Pergamum had been overrun and Egypt had been retaken.

The peace treaty of 157 BC was a devastating blow to the Seleucids. Theheir war indemnity was set at twenty thousand talents. Coele-Syria was given to Egypt, and all of Anatolia was considered to be off limits, save for Cilicia. Pergamum was given to the brother of Eumenes, Attalus, who was forced to pay tribute to Rome.

The changes for Rome were even more dramatic, however. The Romans refrained from annexing vast territories, as they could easily have done, but thanks to Cato and his supporters, the Republic refrained from annexing vast tracts of territory. There were, however, dramatic changes. Rome built the Via Egnatia, a road linking Epirus with Thessalonika during this period, and established military garrisons in Macedonia and the reduced Kingdom of Pergamum.

The Hellenistic World lay in pieces at the feet of Rome. Macedonia was abolished, Pergamum had been humbled, Egypt owed its existence to Rome, and the Seleucids had been defeated yet again. It is no wonder, then, that Marcus Iuventius Thalna, hero of the Egyptian campaign, could declare that he had established “Imperium Sine Fine.”

Empire Without End.

But other changes were afoot as well. In the chaos and change caused by the emergence of Rome, the Elaiourgeic [6] School of Buddhism would blossom forth, “cleansing the mind of the dregs of the physical as the press separates the oil from the husk.”



[5] Eumenes was willing to switch sides because the Romans had for years been attempting to weaken his kingdom. The Romans believed that he had considered allying with Perseus of Macedonia, and sought to encourage his brother Attalus to claim parts of his kingdom.

[6] Olive press. Thanks to Leo for help coming up with how to say this in Greek.

 

[G.Bone]

just curious- was the talent a regional currency that was minted in gold/silver? was this situated even before the POD?

otherwise, good installment

 

[Faeelin]

just curious- was the talent a regional currency that was minted in gold/silver? was this situated even before the POD?

otherwise, good installment

A talent is about 75 pounds of silver.

 

[Faeelin]

Question: it seems to me that the experience of the Seleucid War might indicate to the Romans that puppet rulers are useless. Would this mean tha the Romans would be more likely to annex states rather than install puppets?

 

[Faeelin]

Note: There is a tendency to view men such as Marco Polo as brave and intrepid explorers who sought out China and traveled along the Silk Road. What we often fail to realize is that like all roads, men traveled both ways on it.

During the 2nd Century BC, the Han Emperor Wu sent an explorer, Zhang Qian, to establish contact with the Yuezhi, a nomadic people who had overrun Bactria and had been driven south by the Xiongnu, nomads from Mongolia. The Emperor sought to establish trading relations with the Yuezhi, and to ally with them against the Xiongnu.

Unfortunately, the Yuezhi were not interested in an alliance, and the idea ended up failing.

In this TL, however, the Bactrians are not overrun by the Yuezhi, because they have resources from India to call on in emergencies, a richer tax base thanks to increased Indian trade, no threat from India, and crucially do not have Menander stabbing the King of Bactria in the back. The Yuezhi are a threat, but they attack Parthia, as they did OTL, and take that over instead of Bactria. The Xiongnu fight with the Bactrians, who, unlike the Yuezhi, are very interested in trade, especially with the fabled lands of Seres….

I will go back and fill in the history between 160 BC and 140 BC in India, and Central Asia but before I do, allow me to present….

”The Travels of Zhang Qian”

“In the reign of the Emperor Han Wudi, the Emperor sought to seek out allies to join us against the Xiongnu. His soldiers had questioned various prisoners of the Xiongnu, who had told them of a foe to the west, in a land known as Tah-Sia [2]. He sent out a summons, and eventually I, Zhang Qian, was chosen.

The land of Tah-Sia is one of many lands that fall under the sway of the Yau [2], who come from a land far to the west, the Land of the Olive. The Yau rule all manner of lands, including Shendu [3] and Tiaozhi [4].But they were a quarrelsome people, and the lord of Tah-Sia often fought with the lord of Tiaozhi.

I set forth with a few servants, including my slave, Kanfu. We journeyed through the land of the Xiongnu, a vast and endless sea of grass that reached for many thousands of li, from whence came the Xiongnu and all other barbarians. The sky is endless and surrounds you like a rice bowl, and made us feel as if we were ants on a table. The barbarians of this land eat little, and drink the blood of their mounts, but we saw that they were in possession of fine goods that they could not possibly have made, including fine blades and strange cloths.

The Xiongnu attempted to interrogate us, and thought we were spies, but being foolish barbarians, they were easily fooled and we journeyed southward. Many of their men were at war with another group of barbarians, the Yuezhi, and there were few guards. We traveled in peace and reached, after many hundred li, the land of Ta-Yaun [5], which is a province of the King of Tah-Sia.

The People of Ta-Yaun are a fairly civilized people, and are settled on the land. They farm wheat, and make wine from grapes. The people of this land love wine greatly, and the wealthy store enough wine in their cellars to last them for decades. The land contains sixty thousand families, and the people are most peculiar. Their eyes are sunken deep into their head, and they grow bushy beards and grease their hear with the oil of grapes [6], which they also use to clean themselves. They are quarrelsome, but honorable, and keen merchants.

Even more valuable are the horses of the Ya-Taun, which are fearsome and powerful beasts. They are hardy and bred for the rigors of the steppes, and are easily the equal of the horses of the Xiongnu.[7] Such beasts would be most valuable for the armies of the Son of Heaven, although when I asked the governor of Ya-Taun about acquiring such horses, he said it must be deferred to the decision of the king of Tah-Sia, although he was most eager to acquire silk for his wife…..


Our journey then took us to the court of the King of Tah-Sia, A Po-Lo. The capital city was a marvel to behold, with statues of their gods and past kings adorning every public place. The gods of the Yaun look like men, and they paint their statues in a wide range of colors, reflecting the complexions of the people. Their cities contain baths and places for men to exercise, and they often wrestle naked, as is their custom. It is said that many of the men of Bactria are intimate with one another, although whether or not this is true for certain I can not say, for I did not seek to find this out….


Some of the Yaun as pale as milk, and others are the color of copper; and some have hair that is red like fire, while others have hair that is black as night. They are an industrious people, and trade with all the lands they know of. I even saw bamboo and silk from Chu. When I asked how these had reached Tah-Sia, I was told that they came from Shendu, and told me of fearsome monsters and perils that separated our land from theirs. It is clear to me that they would eagerly seek to trade directly with us, if only they could.

King A Po-Lo is the brother of the King of Shendu, as is the custom of the Yaun, and a crafty ruler. Like many of the Yaun, he had heard of our land, which they call “Serres”, and eagerly seek our goods. We dined together in his palace, and I sampled much of their strange food, including a white spice from Shendu, which tastes like honey. The king showed me his army, which includes elephants that his warriors ride into battle, and was of course honored by our gifts of silk, gold, and jade.

It occurred to me that there was another route Tah-Sia, through Shendu. Tah-Sia is located twelve thousand li west of China. Now if the kingdom of Shendu is situated several thousand li southeast of Daxia and obtains goods that are produced in Shu, it seems to me that it must not be very far from Shu. At present, if we try to send envoys to Tah-sia by way of the mountain trails that lead through the territory of the Qiang people, they will be molested by the Qiang[8], while if we send them a little farther north, they will be captured by the Xiongnu. It would seem that the most direct route, as well as the safest, would be that out of Shu.

It would be most advantageous to the Son of Heaven if he sought to establish both routes; that way, even if one attempt failed, the other would still succeed; and if both succeeded, then the Son of Heaven could reach Shendu and Tah-Sia directly

The men of Tah-Sia, Ta-Yaun, He-La [9], and the other lands all crave the products of China, but they are strong in war. The Son of Heaven could subdue them through peaceful means by ties of trade, and that way he could extend his domain by ten thousand li, and his might would be known by all men in the world.

. The route from Shu, however, is controlled by hostile barbarians, and it was clear to me that it would be necessary to visit the King of Shendu if I was to discuss an alliance against the barbarians. I therefore sent half of my embassy to return to the court of the Son of Heaven, while Apo-Lo dispatched me with an impressive escort to visit his brother, in Shendu.

Thoughts?

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[1] 140-87 BC, OTL.

[2] Greeks.

[3] India

[4] Mesopotamia

[5] Ferghana

[6] Zhan Qhian was not, of course, aware of the difference between olives and grapes.

[7] The horses of Ya-Taun were respected by the Han OTL, who in fact attempted to conquer Ya-Taun to acquire them.

[8] Tibet

[9] Greece, and the surrounding areas.