Answers for Milinda

January, 90 BC

Jason rubbed his hands together, and shivered. “What sort of place,” he grumbled, “has rivers that freeze?” He looked across the frozen river, at the snow covered lands that surrounded them. Why, he thought whimsically, couldn’t they have visited Sicily? Or Ephesus?

Still, there were advantages, he thought, as he looked at Calgacus next to him. “Does this happen often?” he asked him in Greek. He had picked up a few words in Gallic, but Greek came naturally to him.

“The snow, you mean?” asked Calgacus. If the cold bothered him, he didn’t show it. Calgacus shrugged, and looked across the river. “A few times a winter, perhaps,” he said. “We are fairly far north, remember, in the lands of the Belgae.” He gestured at the horsemen with them. “That’s part of the reason they are with us, actually,” he said.

Jason looked across the river. “Do you expect trouble?” he asked. These lands were part of the king’s domain, but it was still worrisome. He wondered if the river could support the weight of a barbarian horde while it was frozen, and looked at the ice again.

Calgacus pursed his lips at his comment. “Not really,” he said after a moment. “But the Belgae were only conquered a few decades ago. It will take time for them to accept their place.” He sighed. “And it’s not easy,” continued Calgacus, “to keep the tribes of the Keltoi in line.”

“What do you mean?” asked Jason. He looked up from the river and turned to his friend.

“You Greeks have you traditions of freedom and independence, and so do we. There are hosts of proud nobles across Gaul with their owned armed retainers, and they feel that my father violates their ancient privileges and rights. So we must be careful to not offend them. But at the same time,” continued Calgacus, “they must obey the king, otherwise we are back where we were. Calgacus groped for an analogy, and said, “It’s like when you drive cattle between the two fires during Beltane. If the cow goes too close to either one, it gets burned.”

This was not something, Jason suspected, that his uncle had heard, and it might be worth knowing. “What do you do, then?” he asked.

“My father tries to make sure he does nothing the nobles do not approve of. He summons assemblies of nobles, as the older kings did, but he summons them to hear his word from across Letauia, and to shore up support for his policy. He appoints the Vergobrets [4] of the towns, and he demonstrates to people his power.” Calgacus leaned against a tree. “Tournaments, celebrations, that sort of thing.” He shrugged. “he also imports new skills and artisans from the Mediterranean lands, to remind the people that he has the favor of the gods.”

Jason’s teeth were chattering, but he was intrigued. “Why does that remind your people that your family has the favor of the gods?” he asked.

“My ancestors were the ones who supported the worship of Lug, the many talented one, who first gave men the arts. When they introduce new arts, it reminds people of their association with Lug.” He shrugged, and leaned against a tree whose leaves had long since fallen. “Why do you think he encouraged the monks to build water wheels? Or the roads he has constructed across Letauia? Or,” he smirked, “the adoption of the technologies of Seres and other eastern lands, described in your books?”[5]

Calgacus smiled. “But come, Jason,” he said, putting his arm around Jason. “You look cold. Why don’t we go inside, and warm ourselves by a fire?”

Lugdunum, February 90 BC [6]

Outside, it was still cold, perhaps the coldest it ever was in the entire year. But to the Celts, it was the beginning of spring. The ewes had begun to lactate, and the goddess Brigid returned to make the earth fertile. To celebrate, Dunmorix had prepared a feast that would last for weeks, for the peoples of his kingdom. His tables were heaped with meats and wine, honeyed pastries and fruits, and everything else the Gauls loved to eat. Jason longed for a salad, but evidently that was something no one would ever eat in Gaul.

But the holiday, which the Celts called Imbolc, was mainly for sacrifices and offerings to their gods, to ensure a fruitful year. The Celts had abstained from human sacrifice, but they had other ways of giving the gods the blood they desired.

“Great sport, is it not?” cried Calgacus. His next comment was drowned out by the cheers as a mounted warrior, his mail gleaming in the sun, and his helmet plumed with feathers from the East, drove his lance through the chest of his opponent.

Jason leaned forward. Something about this bothered him, but he couldn’t say why. “So Brigid and Lug find this pleasing?” he asked.

The cheering continued as the warrior rode off of the field. “Of course,” said Calgacus. “These men fight for the favor of the gods, and risk their lives for them. They sacrifice themselves for the good of Gaul.”

Jason was unconvinced. “Isn’t this human sacrifice, by another name?” he asked.

Calgacus’s eyes widened. “Not at all!” he protested. “This is a feat of strength, and a trial by combat. The ones that are favored by the gods triumph, and the loser goes to serve them.” Jason remained unconvinced, but shrugged. Every city in the civilized world had coliseums, where gladiators fought to the death. This wasn’t any different, really [6]. If anything, he was surprised to see that the Celtae fought like the cataphracts. Their head was encased in an iron helmet, and they and their horse both wore coats of mail. When they rode into battle, they carried long lances, which they tried to impale each other on. Before he could see the next battle, however, Calgacus got up go to for a walk, and Jason followed.

“Did you adopt that manner of fighting from the Greeks?” asked Jason.

Calgacus snorted. “Not really,” he said. “We adopted your lance instead of a spear, and we wear more armor than we used to, but your cataphracts,” sneered Calgacus, “were nothing knew. Their saddle was even inferior to ours [7] , which meant that we could ride faster than them.” He chuckled. “Gave the Seleucids quite a surprise, from what I’ve heard.”

Jason nodded, remembering the reputation that the Celtic mercenaries had acquired in the war, and walked with Jason through the stalls of merchants, who had travelled from across the world to sell goods during the festival. Jason stopped in front of a druid, who was finishing a sacrifice and chanting something to the crowd that was watching. Jason had picked up a smattering of the Celtic language, but he didn’t understand a word of it. “What’s he saying?” he asked.

Calgacus had been eyeing a girl who’d been walking by, but turned to listen. After a moment, he said, “In your language, it would sound something like this:

Or you will sow yellow grain under a different star
in the place from which you have previously harvested
the pulse, rejoicing in its trembling pod
or the fruits of the thin vetch or the bitter lupine's
brittle stalks and rustling thicket.
You see, a crop of flax parches the field; so do oats;
so do poppies full of the sleep of Lethe.
But with rotation the work is easy! Just don't
be embarrassed to stuff the soil with fat dung and
to throw dirty ash throughout the worn-out fields.
In this way too the land rests through crop-rotation
and meanwhile, although unploughed, the earth shows its gratitude.[8]


Jason blinked, and, after a moment, started laughing. “The druid is reciting farming methods?” he asked.

“Why not?” asked Calgacus. “They and the monks are the ones who keep track of the calendar, and if they can find something that will make farming easier, of course they will encourage its use. They receive a share of what’s grown, after all”.

Jason remained silent for a while, as they walked through the fair. The Gauls, it seemed, had picked up a smattering of civilization. But the more he dwelt with them, the more he was convinced that it was a veneer over something alien. It would have bothered him, he decided, if it wasn’t what made Calgacus so attractive.




[4] Celtic magistrates

[5] The Greeks have been fascinated with Chinese culture, and there has been a steady stream of travel guides coming out of China from the 120s BC onwards. Given how quickly Marco Polo’s tales spread around medieval Europe, I don’t think it’s surprising to find the elite of Gaul reading about things like cast iron and moldboard plows, and adopting them to their own lands.

[6] Antiochus IV is generally credited with introducing gladiator combat to the Hellenistic World, so I think its spread would have occurred in a longer lived Seleucid Empire, just as in a Roman one.

Whether this is a good thing or not, I leave to the reader.
[7] The Celts had a four pommel, stirrup-less saddle with a projecting pommel in each corner. The back two vertical projections kept the rider from slipping backwards, while, the front two projections were bent backwards and angled over the rider's thigh. It’s clear that it was superior to the traditional classical saddles, because this was the saddle the Romans ultimately adopted.

[8] Stolen from Gavin, who picked it up from Virgil.
 
Lugdunum, April 90 BC

Jason smiled as they approached the walls of Lugdunum. He and his uncle had visited the lands of the Veneti, to see how the Celts sailed across the ocean. It had been a disturbing experience, as the Veneti, these days, made much of their money capturing slaves and exporting them to the Mediterranean. When he had asked them about it, they said that with the coming of the Dunmorix, the Celts couldn’t raid each other for slaves, and since the slaves had to come from somewhere, the Veneti had taken to raiding the isles to their north.

As they rode up the stone walls towards the city’s gates, Posidonius seemed ill at ease. “Jason,” he said at last, “I hope you realize that the Celts are different than us.” He shifted awkwardly in his saddle, and continued speaking. “That is to say, nephew, that they might not feel the same way about things that you do.”

Jason began to feel uneasy, but his uncle refused to elaborate. “I am afraid that you will find out soon enough.”

Jason found out that Calgacus was resting in his chambers, and went to see him there. As he approached the door, however, he heard something that he was not expecting. The woman’s moans were loud enough for him to hear in the hallway. He rushed in, finding Calgacus and the woman in a rather indelicate state. Jason stood there in shock for a moment, and stared at the two of them. “What,” he asked, “is going on here?”

The girl merely smiled. “What does it look like?” she asked.

Jason refused to answer that question. Indeed, he couldn’t think of anything to say. He merely stormed out of the room, leaving the girl there with Calgacus. As he walked away, he could hear the moans of the girl as they resumed their activity echo down the hallway.


Jason didn’t see Calgacus for a few days, and had time to think about what had transpired, and what had happened in Gaul. He was still upset about it, of course, but he had given it some thought, and had come to terms with it, in a way.

He was writing down those thoughts when Calgacus knocked on his door. “Come in,” said Jason absently, not looking up from his work.

Calgacus stood by the door for a moment, as if unsure whether or not he should enter. After a moment, he walked in, and shut the door behind him. “I just wanted to say,” he said after a moment, “I’m sorry.” He coughed. “However,” he said, “I think it was unfair of you to expect anything more from me.” Calgacus preened. “After all, I’m a prince. How could you expect that you would have me to yourself?”

“You’re right, of course,” said Jason, who still didn’t look up from the document he was working on.
Calgacus seemed somewhat taken aback by Jason’s response. “Oh,” he said after a moment. “We’re still friends, right?”

Jason nodded. “Of course,” he said. He waited for Calgacus to leave the room, and returned to his work.

In truth, he did still consider Calgacus a friend, after a fashion. But mainly he pitied Calgacus, for he believed that the man’s life was going to be a poor one. His people would need a wise king for the times ahead, and he simply wasn’t it.

The Romans, Jason knew, were now very interested in Gaul, after the devastation the Cimbri and Teutones had wrought. And under the Arverni, Gaul was becoming rich enough to be a tempting target for the Romans. But not, he thought, a threat.

He smiled darkly, as he imagined what the Romans would do to Lugdnunum, and to Calgacus. Jason almost pitied him.

Almost.
 
Not all of the followers of the Noble Eightfold Path were Stoics, seeking enlightenment solely by contemplation of the teachings of the Enlightened Ones. Their chief competitor was, of course, the NeoPythagoreans, who offered a way to Enlightenment that was much more accessible to the man on the street of the Hellenistic World.

The Neopythagoreans began with Apollonius of Patala, who, according to his followers, was a reincarnation of Pythagoras himself. Apollonius was born in the decades following the Greek conquest of the Ganges Basin, and grew up in the cultural ferment of northern India. According to his followers, he did not remember that he was Pythagoras until he was twenty, when he drank a brew made of ganjika[1] and wine, he realized all that he had forgotten, and taught the Path to Enlightenment once again.

Apollonius taught that the material world was only a shadow of reality, that prevented one from seeing the Transcendant One, or the true force behind the world. Ordinarily one’s soul was aware of the Transcendant One, but attachment to the body corrupted it and prevented it from being aware of it. The ultimate goal was to merge with the Transcendant One, the world-soul that directed creation.

This may seem rather similar to the beliefs of the Stoic branch, and in general, they are. But in the details, the Pythagorean system is rather different. The Pythagoreans do not view the universe as being actively good, the way the Stoics do. The universe, as the one, simply is; its various components are good and evil. And it is in this dualism, between good and evil that the differences in Neopythagoreanism emerge.

The original Pythagoreans taught that the universe had ten main qualities, consisting of traits such as even-odd, many-single, and light-dark, and matter-pneuma. The world of matter is associated with darkness and evil, and the world of pneuma is associated with light, good, and, oddly, even numbers. Fortunes would be spent, over generations, determining what births were associated with what traits, and it would be a well known fact that the Savior’s birth was associated with many, light, and odd numbers.

Odd numbers were considered masculine; even numbers feminine because they are weaker than the odd. because odd + even always gives odd numbers. And two evens can never produce an odd, while two odds produce an even. To have a son who was born on an odd day was thus a cause for some rejoicing, and there would be women who would try to delay their labor for a day in the hopes of producing a son.

Unfortunately, this belief in the importance of observing the world’s balance would lead to fierce debates, as some followers would claim that asceticism was necessary to maintain enlightenment, while others maintained that it was necessary to indulge in sensual pleasures as well to maintain a proper balance.

The Neopythagoreans also differ from Stoics in their view of the world as whole. Stoics view the world as evidence of the gods’ majesty, and view the material world as their domain. Neopythagoreans, on the other hand, view the world as a distraction that obscures the Gods from them, and take a much more ambivalent view to involvement in regular matters. Their view of the world, at its most extreme conclusion, actually views the material world, and all that is associated with it, as evil in and of itself, which leads to vicious debates with the Stoa.

But if the material world is evil, how does one interact with the world of the light? The answer lies in the simple facts that while the material world is corrupt, mathematics are not. Dwelling solely in thought, they are a tool that can bring order and reason to a chaotic, sinful world. It should come as no surprise then, that the Neopythagoreans, with their emphasis on finding signs of the divine order that would help them achieve enlightenment, fixed upon numbers as a way to bring themselves to the Gods.

But how could these short cuts to Enlightenment be taught? One way discussed by Apollonius involved, of course, music. The original Pythagoras had taught, after all, that the whole heaven was “a musical scale and number”, and in the teachings of Apollonius, the relationship between music and the divine became paramount. Music offered a window directly into the divine, away from the base matter of existence. Apollonius claimed to hear the music of the heavens, and some of the greatest minds of the Neopythagorean School would try to analyze music, and compose holy hymns, designed to express mathematical relationships and offer a way to Enlightenment. Songs would express the proportions of the parts of the world soul, the distance between the parts of the heavens, or any number of concepts.

By 50 BC, the Neopythagoreans could be found across the known world. From the olive groves of Hispania, to the mountains of Bactria, the world was full of the Pythagoreans, as they chanted their holy hymns under their sacred sign, the Pentagram.

Thoughts?
 
It's good. I like the discussion about philosophy and the music bit. Are they really into the aesthetics or just the application of it to the philosophy?
 
G.Bone said:
It's good. I like the discussion about philosophy and the music bit. Are they really into the aesthetics or just the application of it to the philosophy?

Both, of course.


More seriously, the music and art are important aspects of their philosophy. It might help if I post something I wrote up for SHWI:

The problem, of course, with mixing religion and mathematics is that certain aspects in mathematics have religious implications. Pythagoras, after all, killed Hippasus for discovering the first irrational numbers, because they threatened his view of an orderly, mathematically derived world.

It was Apollonius, however, who realized the significance of irrational numbers in the cosmic order. Irrational numbers, as such, did not exist in the real world. It was impossible to walk along and find a piece of wood with the length of π. But you could express π in the material world, by examining the relationship between a circle’s radius and circumference or area.

In other words, on their own, the irrational numbers do not have any value in the material world, being too pure and distant from the material world. But by expressing them in terms capable of being understood by the average person, mortals can be drawn closer to enlightenment.

Indeed, the Pentagram itself is an illustration of how irrational numbers can be made comprehensible to man, as the Buddha helped man to comprehend Ataraxia. The interior pentagon in a pentagram consists of several lines, which have a ratio to the lines on the outside of 1:1.618…. This is, of course, the golden mean, and helps mortals to comprehend yet another of the divine numbers.

.....

So, in other words, the music is a tool to help explain the true world; but that is why it's so important; it's a direct conduit between the material, corrupt world, and the pure, real world.
 
The Rhodians, in the closing decades of the 2nd century BC, were a very worried people. The Romans and the Seleucids had both demonstrated clearly that their ability to survive as an independent state was contingent upon their ability to preserve their independence. The fate of the Greek cities of Sicily, Asia Minor, Greece, and everywhere else in the world was obvious to Rhodes, and the Rhodians had no desire to suffer a similar fate.

Seen in this light, the naval buildup that occurred in this period, and the actions of Rhodes during the 3rd Seleucid War, should be interpreted not as part of a scheme to build their own empire, as some Romans would claim, but as part of the Rhodian desperate struggle for survival. Rhodes was well aware that as a single city, it was out of its league if it came to war with empires that ruled millions of people. An alternative was clearly called for, and the Rhodians began to search for a way to give their fleets the upper hand [2].

The Rhodians had a long history of developing new weapons and tactics, of course. In the1st Seleucid war [3], the Rhodians had developed an intriguing weapon, the so-called “fire carrier”. The fire carrier, according to Polybius, was an iron funnel container that filled with pitch, tar, and other incendiaries, and controlled by a chain hanging from the bottom. When the Rhodian ship approached an enemy vessel, the container, theoretically, would pour onto their ship, setting it ablaze.

The device ultimately proved useful in the war, but its use was relatively limited, in part due to its short range. Nevertheless, when a Rhodian engineer known to future generations as Callinicus studied the idea in 122 BC, he had an idea. Callinicus had studied the works of Ctesibius, who had worked in the third century BC with hydraulic and pneumatic machines. Callinicus came up with a simple and yet revolutionary idea. He adopted the pumps of Ctesibius to pump out a volatile mixture, which was set ablaze as it emerged from a tube [4].


The initial mixture consisted of sulfur, resin, quicklime, and “white naptha”, or distilled petroleum [5]. Needless to say, it was a remarkable success.

In other words, Callinicus had invented the world’s first flamethrowers. The resulting supremacy of the Rhodian navy during the first few years of the 3rd Seleucid War can thus be explained. However, the Rhodians were not as lucky as the Byzantines of OTL. The Romans and the Seleucids both launched efforts to learn the secrets of the so-called “Rhodian fire”, and in the world of mercenary engineers of the Hellenistic Era, were successful rather quickly. But this was not enough, for Seleucus or the Roman Senate. Like all rulers in history, they wanted to have a better weapon than their neighbors.

Now, as of 100 BC, the Hellenistic world has plenty of knowledge with empirical chemistry. Vitruvius describes using mercury to refine gold, Pliny describes using vinegar (an acid, after all) to break up rocks in mining, and dying had been going on for millennia. But there have been relatively few attempts to systematize reactions, and develop any sort of method to the madness. The initial results by numerous people, eager to get rich quick, is about what you’d expect: some people make compounds that burn faster, but this is of little interest to the King of the Seleucids, who wants results. Eventually, philosophers at the library of Alexandria, desperate to show the King something, start mixing and matching compounds of various already known incendiaries, in the hope that it will work.

This hits a dead end, for a few years; there are only so many ways you can refine petroleum in Antiquity, although this era also begins to witness the development of alchemical theory, centered around the amount of pneuma in elements. (Combustible things, obviously, have more pneuma than things which don’t burst into flames).

However, there are other people in the world who are also taking an interest in such experiments. Among them is a merchant from Petra, home of the greatest saltpeter works in antiquity.

It is known, of course, that sulfur and charcoal make things burn. But what the Alexandrians did not try was to mix sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter together. When the armies of Sin erupted from the desert, to set the world ablaze, they would realize how great their mistake had been.



[1] The one that lasted between 114 BC and 105 BC

[2] This is where the Hellenistic world was particularly innovative and willing to experiment. The engineers of Alexandria made systematic trials of different catapaults until they achieved the right results, and according to the Greek writer Philon, “engineers drew conclusions from former mistakes, looked exclusively for a standard factor with subsequent experiments as a guide, and introduced the basic principle of construction… the fact that everything cannot be accomplished by the theoretical methods of pure mechanics, but that much is going to be found by experiment, is proved especially what I am going to say”.

There’s the example of Archimedes, of course, but there were also engineers like a certain Biton who dedicated a work entitled “Constructions of Engines of War and Projection” to one of the kings of Pergamum.

[3] 1st for the Romans, of course, not the Rhodians. This was in 192-189 BC.

[4] I think it’s worth pointing out here that there’s a long history of using incendiaries in Greek history, even before this. The weapon used by the Rhodians is similar to one used by the Phoenecians at Alexander’s siege of Tyre. Thucydides even wrote that at the siege of Delion in 424 BC, the Boiotians blew fire at the walls of Delion by using bellows to blow flames forward.

[5] Okay, what are the ancient Greeks doing with complex petroleum?

The answer lies in the fact that fractional distillation existed in ancient India. They were used for making hard liquors, which the Greeks adopt in Milinda with glee. But they are also used for various other processes, like perfumery.

There are also intriguing references to some form of distillation of oil going on in the Mesopotamia of OT. Strabo refers to black and white naptha, without elaborating further. However, the Greek Dioskourides refers to white naptha and calls it filtered asphalt.

Intriguingly, Hippolytos, a Greek that lived around 235 AD, mentions Indian naptha, which “kindles at the mere sight of fire a long way off”, implying something rather flammable.

So, what can we conclude? The Hellenistic world, by 120 BC, would have been familiar with distillation.

The best article on it is “India: The Ancient Home of Distillation?” by F.R. Allchin, written in 1979, and published in Man, the predecessor to the Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute

The ability of quicklime to cause water to fan fires was commented on by Livy and Pliny, suggesting that it was fairly common knowledge in ancient times. So I think it would be used, in this situation.
 
Quite another interesting post Faeelin. Wish I could think of some criticism to help it be even better but I can't it is just that good. Although if I might ask; is this TL is the spread of technology faster than OTL or is it just the perception that it is. I guess what I'm saying is just because one ancient Greek new of something doesn't mean it was disseminated among the masses let alone to the few others who might be able to make use of the information or technology.
 
Shadow Knight said:
Quite another interesting post Faeelin. Wish I could think of some criticism to help it be even better but I can't it is just that good.

Thanks.

Although if I might ask; is this TL is the spread of technology faster than OTL or is it just the perception that it is. I guess what I'm saying is just because one ancient Greek new of something doesn't mean it was disseminated among the masses let alone to the few others who might be able to make use of the information or technology.

No, you're right, technology is spreading faster than in OTL. This was actually one of the reasons I did the timeline.

-There's greater contact between the Hellenistic, Indian, and Chinese cultures, so ideas are travelling earlier than OTL. The Greeks look at textile printing in India, and adopt it to books; and the Han pick it up from them. The Greeks adopt Cast iron from the Han.

The Indians, meanwhile, get Hellenistic astronomy, centuries earlier.

-There's greater travel within the Hellenistic spheres; it hasn't been mentioned, but a pilgrimage to the holy places of Buddhism is leading to a continuous flow of travellers across Central asia.

-And, while this is still in the early stages, the ancient world has the printing press, which will speed up development.

-This is greatly exagerrated, but the divisiveness of the Mediterranean plays a small role, as evidenced in the last post; not much of one, of course, since it only applies to weapons. You could probably finangle things to get something like an industrial revolution, if there weren't wars every few decades.

Hmm. You know, if I were to do this again, I'd move it to the beginning of the Principate, and have the contacts via the sea. By 300 AD, the first trains are on the Lombard plains...
 
First trains?

Methinks this is from Rafi's TL so long ago...

I do like how you threw in Petra. Is that the stone city from Indiana Jones? It's very good - with the foreboding factor of "The Army of Sin". Very interesting as one would say...
 
This hits a dead end, for a few years; there are only so many ways you can refine petroleum in Antiquity, although this era also begins to witness the development of alchemical theory, centered around the amount of pneuma in elements. (Combustible things, obviously, have more pneuma than things which don’t burst into flames).
'Tis nice to see the birth of Phlogiston.
 
They began, it would be remembered, as Bedouin. Whatever else they might become, and whatever else they had done, it would always be remembered that the Faithful had emerged into history out of the empty sands, already united as a people.

The Nabataeans entered history in 312 BC, when, according to the Greek historian Diodorus, Antigonus the One-Eyed, decided to expand his realm into the lands of “the Arabs who are called Nabataeans”. According to Diodorus, Antigonus sent an army to attack the Nabataeans at a rock where they gathered for a national festival. The Greek army took the rock, and made off with a substantial amount of frankincense, myrrh, and silver, but the Nabataeans fell upon the Greeks as they retreated, annihilating the Greek army. They then sent a message [1] to Antigonus, asking him why he waged war on a people without water, wine, or grain, and Antigonus’s armies were forced to withdraw.

In the 4th century, they were still nomads, living with their flocks of sheep and camels, and traded frankincense, asphalt from the Dead Sea, and myrrh for goods from the Hellenistic World. But by the end of the 2nd century BC, they had undergone a dramatic change.

The Nabataeans had begun to settle down, and had become, over the past few centuries, farmers. They built an elaborate network of cisterns and reservoirs to irrigate their crops, and areas which never before seen cultivation flourished. Their city grew prosperous from trade, and were so “much inclined to acquire possessions that they publicly fine anyone who has diminished his possessions and also confer honors on anyone who has increased them [2].” Their cities are populated by Jews, Greeks, Egyptians, Samaritans, and peoples from the other nations of the world, and commerce thrives. A people that once abstained from wine now drinks it from golden cups, and a people of the desert have adorned their cities with garden. They live in houses of stone, but leave their city unwalled because of peace. In short, the 2nd century is a time of prosperity for the Nabataeans.

But all is not well for the Nabataeans. The expansion of the monsoon route has cut into their traditional trade, and while they have taken to the sea, as merchants and pirates, there are still many worried merchants in Nabataea. At the same time, the Great King Antiochus “The Victorious”, bankrupt after his expensive war with Rome, has begun to demand tribute from the Nabataeans. Their ancestors would have fought him, but their ancestors also knew that wealth made men easier to conquer. It seemed to many that the sun was setting, on the Nabataean kingdom.


But as the Prophet Haretat taught, it was always darkest before the dawn.


“ I seek refuge with the Lord of the Dawn
From the mischief of created things;
And from the evil of the utterly dark night when it comes”
 
Ahhh. Looks like we might not have a Buddhist world order on our hands after all... Is this going to be a variant on the New Judaism, or something unique?
 
Guys, I think I might put this on hold for a while.

There's plenty of stuff that I'd like to do with it; but I feel like I'm stuck, right now, and so far the stuff I've toyed with doing hasn't felt right.

So, I'm probably going to take a break from this, until such time as I'm less pressed for time.
 
Faeelin said:
Guys, I think I might put this on hold for a while.

There's plenty of stuff that I'd like to do with it; but I feel like I'm stuck, right now, and so far the stuff I've toyed with doing hasn't felt right.

So, I'm probably going to take a break from this, until such time as I'm less pressed for time.

Well that happens, a break can lead to new fresh ideas or just time to work out current problems. I'm sure I speak for most here and say we look forward to what comes next whether the continuation of this excellent TL, or something new. Good luck.
 

Keenir

Banned
quite a cool thread!

Faeelin said:
Guys, I think I might put this on hold for a while.

There's plenty of stuff that I'd like to do with it; but I feel like I'm stuck, right now, and so far the stuff I've toyed with doing hasn't felt right.

So, I'm probably going to take a break from this, until such time as I'm less pressed for time.

do what needs be done.

we're here if & when needed.


Faeelin said:
Thanks.

The Indians, meanwhile, get Hellenistic astronomy, centuries earlier.

didn't the Greeks loathe to use the number Zero? (while India loved it)

how does that turn out in this remarkable ATL? *curious*


Faeelin said:
-This is greatly exagerrated, but the divisiveness of the Mediterranean plays a small role, as evidenced in the last post; not much of one, of course, since it only applies to weapons. You could probably finangle things to get something like an industrial revolution, if there weren't wars every few decades.

well, couldn't that jumpstart the industry?

(granted, raids would be a problem)
 
Keenir said:
do what needs be done.

we're here if & when needed.

I might start something that would be less academically intensive for me, in the mean time.


didn't the Greeks loathe to use the number Zero? (while India loved it)

how does that turn out in this remarkable ATL? *curious*

The Greeks didn't have the number zero; it's not entirely clear that the Indians had it at this point, either, actually.

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/history/HistTopics/Zero.html

well, couldn't that jumpstart the industry?

(granted, raids would be a problem)

Hmm. My problem with the "division and wars encourage innovation" is that the IR occurred in Britain, which was one of the most peaceful parts of Europe from 1500 on. (And, if you realize how chaotic Britain was, ouch).
 
Top