Another outcome at the battle of Stångebro

A little background first: King Johan III was married to a Polish princess Katarina Jagelonica they had a son Sigismund which became king of Sweden
when Johan died he was also king of Poland, Johans brother Duke Karl was not very fond of Sigismund which he thought would try to make catholisism
the religion of the land once again so he revolted and at the battle of Stångebro he defeated Sigismunds forces and made him self king Karl IX upon his death his son as I am sure you all have heard of became king
his name was Gustaf II Adolf also known as Gustavus Adolphus. Suppose that the duke loses this battle and have to go into exile with is family.
Sigismund keeps the throne and in a few years he manages to defeat all other rebels and after a while reinstates catholisism as the religion of the land. What would happen? Well I know this no wars with Poland so Livonia
stays Polish, no military reforms because no Gustaf II Adolf and no Swedish
elite army landing on the Pommeranian coast 1629 and probably the holy league will win the 30 years war.
Anyone have any differnet thoughts about this?
 
Denmark would have been attacked from two sides when the war breaks out in 1619, or even sooner. Catholism is THE christian religion in Western Europe
 
But suppose this: The duke and his family seeks asylum in Denmark and Christian sees the genius in Gustaf so when Karl dies in 1611 and Gustaf becames duke Christian makes him a colonel in the Danish army seeing the threat of catholic Sweden. In the following years Gustaf rises in rank and when Christian decides to intervene in the 30 years war Gustaf is a general
and he manages to defeat Tilly in battle and Christian listen to his ideas
about warfare and he reorganises the Danish army along this lines and the Danes win some victories against the league in Germany.
 
But suppose this: The duke and his family seeks asylum in Denmark and Christian sees the genius in Gustaf so when Karl dies in 1611 and Gustaf becames duke Christian makes him a colonel in the Danish army seeing the threat of catholic Sweden. In the following years Gustaf rises in rank and when Christian decides to intervene in the 30 years war Gustaf is a general
and he manages to defeat Tilly in battle and Christian listen to his ideas
about warfare and he reorganises the Danish army along this lines and the Danes win some victories against the league in Germany.

To do this Denmark must live another 30 years. Had the Catholics really taken care of Sweden then Denmark would be attacked from two sides in a requouncista within 10 years
 

Redbeard

Banned
To do this Denmark must live another 30 years. Had the Catholics really taken care of Sweden then Denmark would be attacked from two sides in a requouncista within 10 years

By early 17th century Denmark-Norway had a significant economical potential. Combined with military reforms and a skilled military commander a Catholic Sweden (sans the same reforms and commmander)would be in problems, no matter what the Emperor in Wienna does.

The Emperor might invade Jutland, but that will not be a serious threat to Denmark-Norway's economy back then, and any Imperial forces in Jutland risk being outflanked and/or cut off by Danish forces landed on the Jutland East Coast.

The Baltic and the Baltic entrances are likely to be entirely under Danish-Norwegian control. The British and Dutch are unlikely allies of the Emperor and the Spanish are not likley to show up again in northern waters again - or be instruments of the Emperor.

That leaves Sweden all isolated - so while the Danish-Norwegian Navy control the seas the army can finish off Sweden, reinstate protestantism and prehaps reestablish a Nordic Union.

The Imperial army can wait for 1658, when the Great Belt frooze over, but until then they really can't do much else than drain the Imperial warchest.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Oddball

Monthly Donor
By early 17th century Denmark-Norway had a significant economical potential. Combined with military reforms and a skilled military commander a Catholic Sweden (sans the same reforms and commmander)would be in problems, no matter what the Emperor in Wienna does.

The Emperor might invade Jutland, but that will not be a serious threat to Denmark-Norway's economy back then, and any Imperial forces in Jutland risk being outflanked and/or cut off by Danish forces landed on the Jutland East Coast.

The Baltic and the Baltic entrances are likely to be entirely under Danish-Norwegian control. The British and Dutch are unlikely allies of the Emperor and the Spanish are not likley to show up again in northern waters again - or be instruments of the Emperor.

That leaves Sweden all isolated - so while the Danish-Norwegian Navy control the seas the army can finish off Sweden, reinstate protestantism and prehaps reestablish a Nordic Union.

The Imperial army can wait for 1658, when the Great Belt frooze over, but until then they really can't do much else than drain the Imperial warchest.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard

What the man said.

And if you throw in an half-assed King also, :D its not just a chatolic Sweden that is in trouble
 
Well, if Sigismundus forces won in Stångebro it may, ironically, spell end of Sigismunds' rule in Poland-Lithuania, as he'd probably be more concerned about Sweden and spend more time there than in Commonwealth. For Poles and Lithuanians it may remind to some extent the situation with Henry Valois (Henry III of France). I see Commonwealths' Parliament giving ultimatum to Sigismund to return to Poland and Sigismund more-or-less ignoring it, and then Parliament deciding that they don't want such a king...
 
Well, if Sigismundus forces won in Stångebro it may, ironically, spell end of Sigismunds' rule in Poland-Lithuania, as he'd probably be more concerned about Sweden and spend more time there than in Commonwealth. For Poles and Lithuanians it may remind to some extent the situation with Henry Valois (Henry III of France). I see Commonwealths' Parliament giving ultimatum to Sigismund to return to Poland and Sigismund more-or-less ignoring it, and then Parliament deciding that they don't want such a king...
That could very well be true since the Polish nobles did not like a powerful
king, treasuring their "golden freedom" and if Sigismund had a second kingdom and the treasury and army to draw from the nobles would look at´
this with alarm so maybe they had simply deposed him and this even could lead to the same kind of war as in our timeline but reversed so to speak hehe Sigimund king of Sweden trying to regain his Polish kingdom instead of
Sigismund king of Poland trying to regain his Swedish kingdom. Russia is another interesting dilemma with the time of troubles and all.
 
Anna Vasa/Wasa

That could very well be true since the Polish nobles did not like a powerful
king, treasuring their "golden freedom" and if Sigismund had a second kingdom and the treasury and army to draw from the nobles would look at´
this with alarm so maybe they had simply deposed him and this even could lead to the same kind of war as in our timeline but reversed so to speak hehe Sigimund king of Sweden trying to regain his Polish kingdom instead of
Sigismund king of Poland trying to regain his Swedish kingdom. Russia is another interesting dilemma with the time of troubles and all.

Well there is also Sigismund's sister Anne. Could she not be installed as Regent for Sigismund in one of his Kingdom's. Or even installed in his stead in Poland&Lithuania. Is there any particular prohibition for a woman obtaining such a position in the Commonwealth or Sweden. If he re-installs Catholicism then he will have to bring Catholic Swedes of influence to power in that realm if he indeed has to return to P&L. She is only 30 in 1698. What better way then by marrying her off to one of his Swedish supporters. Or could one of the Polish houses have used marriage to her to gain a more influential position in the Commonwealth if he is otherwise distracted.

Obviously the bloodbath of Linkoping will have a different complexion if it occurs at all.
 
On second thought Anna seems to have converted to Protestantism herself so maybe there isn't room. But if she were Regent in the Commonwealth despite her Protestantism, this would have some ramifications for the Counter Reformation in the Commonwealth and by extension Sweden. There is probably little room for intervention in the Muscovite Civil War.

Of course if she were to be his representative in Sweden instead as a Compromise to the Protestants there.... Does the marriage to Gustav Brahe go ahead....?
 
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