Another commander for the British Fifth Army in WWI

MrP

Banned
Has anyone good ideas for an alternative commander of Reserve/Fifth Army. Let me get this out of the way first: this is not TL research for PlC. If you know all the background, you may as well skip the next bit.

Hubert Gough is widely regarded as a bit of a cock. He was an aggressive thrusting commander who made high demands on his men that circumstances made impossible. It was hoped that at the Somme Gough's Reserve Army could exploit the gap sure to appear in the German lines. Subsequently Reserve Army grew, took on a portion of the line and was renamed Fifth Army. Gough was eventually replaced when scapegoated by the British government for the German successes in early 1918.

Replacing him means looking into why he was chosen, what it was felt he brought to the role. That seems to divide into three parts. First, Gough had an emotional link to Haig, who had been very close to Gough's younger brother, Johnnie, who had been unexpectedly killed. Second, Gough was a "thruster" - a man who would push his men forward, which was an essential characteristic in the general appointed to perform the expected exploitation of the German lines. Third, Hubert Gough had the requisite position/status for such an increase in status. The commander of 7th Division, Thompson Capper, had been injured in 1915, and Gough took over his division for several months until his return.

A great deal of this is chance. If Johnnie had survived, he would have held Major-General rank from an earlier period, and been more trusted by Haig. If Capper hadn't been wounded at a behind the lines demonstration, Gough could not have taken his place as divisional commander, and so his rise would have been slower.

So I would like to solicit suggestions for an alternative commander of Reserve/Fifth Army. Thoughts, people?
 

MrP

Banned
Any thoughts, chaps? Even a constructive critique of my analysis would be appreciated. I know there are other WWI enthusiasts out there! ;)
 
Has anyone good ideas for an alternative commander of Reserve/Fifth Army. Let me get this out of the way first: this is not TL research for PlC. If you know all the background, you may as well skip the next bit.

Hubert Gough is widely regarded as a bit of a cock. He was an aggressive thrusting commander who made high demands on his men that circumstances made impossible. It was hoped that at the Somme Gough's Reserve Army could exploit the gap sure to appear in the German lines. Subsequently Reserve Army grew, took on a portion of the line and was renamed Fifth Army. Gough was eventually replaced when scapegoated by the British government for the German successes in early 1918.

Replacing him means looking into why he was chosen, what it was felt he brought to the role. That seems to divide into three parts. First, Gough had an emotional link to Haig, who had been very close to Gough's younger brother, Johnnie, who had been unexpectedly killed. Second, Gough was a "thruster" - a man who would push his men forward, which was an essential characteristic in the general appointed to perform the expected exploitation of the German lines. Third, Hubert Gough had the requisite position/status for such an increase in status. The commander of 7th Division, Thompson Capper, had been injured in 1915, and Gough took over his division for several months until his return.

A great deal of this is chance. If Johnnie had survived, he would have held Major-General rank from an earlier period, and been more trusted by Haig. If Capper hadn't been wounded at a behind the lines demonstration, Gough could not have taken his place as divisional commander, and so his rise would have been slower.

So I would like to solicit suggestions for an alternative commander of Reserve/Fifth Army. Thoughts, people?

MrP

Depends on how you handle the change. Have seen it suggested that the best commander Britain had was Smith-Dorian [or was it Dorian-Smith, never quite sure I remember the name rightly]. He was commander of the 2nd Corp in the BEF and unfortunately clashed with French which lead to his dismissal. Then I think he want to Africa and was serious afflicted by some disease which effectively ended his career. If you have something to avoid either his dismissal, going to Africa or being taken ill there he could be a suitable figure. [Although might be too much of a rival for Haig to be comfortable with him. Apparently he was pretty strong-willed so could have been a turbulent relationship].

Another alternative might be Allenby who was successful on the western front before going to Palestine. Or possibly, in order to improve relations with the dominions you could have one of the Canadian or Australian generals put in charge of an army. [This could have damaging effects however as that character would both be in an awkward position himself - torn between two or more loyalties and also it would make him politically rather difficult to sack if things didn't work out].

Anyway a few ideas off the top of my head. Hope they are of use but your no doubt far more up to speed on the period than me.

Steve
 

MrP

Banned
MrP

Depends on how you handle the change. Have seen it suggested that the best commander Britain had was Smith-Dorian [or was it Dorian-Smith, never quite sure I remember the name rightly]. He was commander of the 2nd Corp in the BEF and unfortunately clashed with French which lead to his dismissal. Then I think he want to Africa and was serious afflicted by some disease which effectively ended his career. If you have something to avoid either his dismissal, going to Africa or being taken ill there he could be a suitable figure. [Although might be too much of a rival for Haig to be comfortable with him. Apparently he was pretty strong-willed so could have been a turbulent relationship].

Another alternative might be Allenby who was successful on the western front before going to Palestine. Or possibly, in order to improve relations with the dominions you could have one of the Canadian or Australian generals put in charge of an army. [This could have damaging effects however as that character would both be in an awkward position himself - torn between two or more loyalties and also it would make him politically rather difficult to sack if things didn't work out].

Anyway a few ideas off the top of my head. Hope they are of use but your no doubt far more up to speed on the period than me.

Steve

Cheers, old man. Smith-Dorrien is a bit of a difficult one. I agree he was a splendid fellow by most measures, but French had believed ever since Le Cateau that S-D had recklessly risked his corps and almost destroyed the BEF (a view I don't think any modern historian holds). I suspect it's possible to retain S-D if one fiddles with the date of Neuve Chapelle a bit, and dismisses French before he can dismiss S-D. So that is certainly a good answer.

That said, I am ideally* aiming for a post-Haig as C-in-C solution, which rules out poor old S-D. The problem with Allenby is that he's running 3rd Army, so I'd have to replace him. I was going to add a list of corps commanders earlier, but the site whence I would source them is down atm. I'll try to get one sorted out tomorrow. Byng did replace Allenby, but that isn't until 1917 IOTL, so I dunno if he's ideal at this stage.

Here's a list of OTL Army Commanders I nabbed off Wiki:

First Army:
Lieutenant-General Sir Douglas Haig (1914 - 1915)
General Sir Henry Rawlinson (1915 - 1916)
General Sir Charles Monro (1916)
General Sir Henry Horne (1916 - 1918)

Second Army:
General Horace Smith-Dorrien
General Herbert Plumer

Third Army:
General Edmund Allenby (23 October 1915 – 9 June 1917)
General Sir Julian Byng (9 June 1917 – 11 November 1918)

Fourth Army:
General Sir Henry Rawlinson

Reserve/Fifth Army:
General Sir Hubert Gough

* Though I've already said a surviving Johnnie Gough is one way, so please don't think I'm ruling your idea out!
 

MrP

Banned
Hm, here's a thought. Monro successfully organised the Gallipoli evacuation, so he might have been held acceptable to take over Allenby's army while Allenby was shifted over to Reserve Army. A problem with that is that it's an effective demotion for Allenby (not an insurmountable problem given the shrinkage of Rawlinson's command and his subsequent return to prominence in the post-Gough period, but still).
 
Mr P

That's partly why I worded it as I did, in terms of S-D. If he has gone to Africa and not gotten sick then after French was sacked he's an option as one of our more experienced commander to fill in a post in the expanding army.

Good point about Allenby. Should have remembered he was already an army commander before going east.

Any particular reason why your looking at the 5th army in particular?

Steve
 

MrP

Banned
Mr P

That's partly why I worded it as I did, in terms of S-D. If he has gone to Africa and not gotten sick then after French was sacked he's an option as one of our more experienced commander to fill in a post in the expanding army.

Good point about Allenby. Should have remembered he was already an army commander before going east.

Any particular reason why your looking at the 5th army in particular?

Steve

I'm not sure about S-D. I didn't get a strong sense of Haig's opinion of the man from Haig's diaries. Haig was extremely nervous about German outflanking, and S-D's stand at le Cateau undermines Haig's position somewhat, since it demonstrates that making a stand against the enemy can work despite vaunted German tactics.

The reason I'm looking at Fifth is mainly because I seem to be at the beginning of a fascination with Gough. I suspect that if he had either remained a British divisional commander or been a German commander in '18 or not been sacked before he could participate in the Hundred Days, he could have a much better reputation than he had (which is different from thinking he was a good general, I hasten to add!).

Btw, thankee for replying! I appreciate having someone to talk to in here! :D
 
Personally, Smith-Dorrien seems one of the better options. French hated him, true, but perhaps some internal power struggle ends with French completly humiliated and discredited, and Smith-Dorrien as the consensus candidate for promotion as one of french's rivals.

Other possibilities:

Thomas D'Oyly Snow

Julian Byng

Herbert Plumer

a competent lot, at least, although I defer to others more knowedgable than I on plausibility.

edit: this guy was to junior for the op, but maybe you can find a place for him. Charles fitzClarence, one of those officers whose potentially great career was cut short (he arguably saved the british position during Ypres, when he sealed the breach at Gheluvelt).
 
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I would think that Sir John Monash would be a great candidate for new commander he was probably one of the best commander on the allies side during WW1. Here's a a link to a few of the battles he planned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hamel
The battle was a success; only 92 minutes were needed to attain all the objectives, as compared to the many months of previous battles, e.g. the similar defensive position that had resisted capture for two months in the Battle of the Somme. There were 1062 Australian casualties (including 800 dead), as well as 176 American casualties (almost 100 dead), while there were probably 2000 Germans killed and 1,600 captured, along with much enemy equipment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Amiens
The Canadian and Australian forces in the center advanced quickly, pushing the line 3 miles (4.8 km) forward from its starting point by 11:00 a.m. The speed of their advance was such that a party of German officers and some divisional staff that were eating breakfast were captured. A gap 15 miles (24 km) long was punched in the German line south of the Somme by the end of the day. There was less success north of the river, where the British III Corps had only a single tank battalion in support, the terrain was rougher and the German incursion of 6 August had disrupted some of the preparations. Although the attackers gained their first objectives, they were held up short of the Chipilly spur, a steep wooded ridge. The British Fourth Army took 13,000 prisoners while the French captured a further 3,000. Total German losses were estimated to be 30,000 on 8 August. The Fourth Army's casualties, British, Australian and Canadian infantry, were approximately 8,800, exclusive of tank and air losses and their French allies. German Army Chief of Staff Paul von Hindenburg noted the Allies' use of surprise and that Allied destruction of German lines of communication had hampered potential German counter-attacks by isolating command positions.The German general Erich Ludendorff described the first day of Amiens as the "Schwarzer Tag des deutschen Heeres" ("the black day of the German Army"), not because of the ground lost to the advancing Allies, but because the morale of the German troops had sunk to the point where large numbers of troops began to capitulate.Five German divisions had effectively been engulfed. Allied forces pushed, on average, seven miles (11 km) into enemy territory by the end of the day.The Canadians gained 8 miles (13 km), Australians 7 miles (11 km), British 2 miles (3.2 km), and the French 5 miles (8.0 km).
 

MrP

Banned
Cheers, chaps! The BigI, thankee, but I'm afraid I've got to dismiss Monash out of hand as too junior for army command in mid-'16 - rest assured this is no negative reflection on him. It's just a question of rank - I need a chap who can be bumped from Maj-Gen to Lieut-Gen in or before mid-'16. Atreus, thankee! Plumer's a possibility if we retain S-D at Second Army. However, Haig may not have felt he had the vitality. He always referred to him as "the old man" (despite P being only a few years H's senior) and IOTL consistently placed the younger Gough ahead of him in demands.

Byng is a definite possibility if we can get Haig to like the chap and thus bump him up the ranks like Gough. He was GOC XVII Corps in Feb '16, after all and promoted to Lieut-Gen May when he took over the Canadians, so bumping him up and changing him to GOC Reserve Army is a definite possibility.

Snow is very interesting as a possibility - and I confess he hadn't occurred to me at all. ISTR that Dan Snow did some family history prog about him the other day, or will be doing one shortly. Aha! I knew it. I shall have a look, but I'm a little worried by "Dan retraces the footsteps of his great grandfather General Thomas Snow and is shocked to discover that he may have been partially to blame for the slaughter at the Battle of the Somme." mainly because I worry it's modern sensibilities intruding on analysis. Still, I'll watch it and see!
 
Grrr. It was Currie who did all the cool things with the Canadian Corps. :mad:

I'd say he'd be a good if not plausible commander for V Army. Burton says he was actually on the Supreme Commander of the Allied Armies shortlist for 1919, although I have my doubts he would have gotten that, either. Still, by the end of the war he was fairly prominent.

Byng seems possible, I would think.
 
What about that chap whose name I can't remember.... He was later an earl... Damn, how do you look up someone you can't remember the name of ?!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

MrP

Banned
If you don't see my post above, I mean the Earl of Cavan

Best regards
Grey Wolf

Ah, simultaneity: the problem of the internet!

Good thinking about Lord Cavan. I'd heard his name mentioned the other week as a good general.
 
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