Another Alternate England

[Flocculencio]

My interest in Anglo-Saxon England was piqued again by Norman's new venture into that area of AH and bouncing a few ideas around, I came up with this one. In OTL, William of Normandy came out the victor in the struggle for control of England in 1066. In the ATL that Norman and I worked on last year, Harald Godwinson took the laurels.

What about the often discounted third party in the war of 1066- Harald Haardraade of Norway? OTL, he was killed by Godwinson at Stamford Bridge. I give you another scenario. Well two others but I'm going with the more interesting one since the less interesting one basically has Harald beating William and then going North and either beating or getting beaten by Haardraade. But heres the more interesting one:

Harald Godwinson decides that William the Bastard is the greater threat and marshals in the South. When William lands, he is faced with a fresh English army and has a much harder time. Godwinson fights a series of battles against the Normans, damaging William's army heavily but ultimately is outflanked and defeated at the battle of Ashdown Forest. William now has de facto control of the South of England but in the meantime, Haardraade has landed with Harald's brother Tostig under his command. Many of the Anglo-Saxon noblemen and churchmen in the North and the Midlands declare in favour of Haardraade. He, too decides to name himself king of England and appoints Tostig Duke of Northumbria. William now has to hold the South against a fresh army of Norsemen and Englishmen.

I can see two ways in which this could go- firstly, Haardraade could beat William and become King of both England and Norway. He would then be able to use the resources of his joint realm to begin another campaign against his enemy, king Sven of Denmark... which could very well give us another United Kingdom of the North (ah...my pet AH state)

More interestingly, perhaps William holds back the Northmen and manages to enforce his dominance over the South. We would have, in effect, a divided England along the pattern of the Danelaw but with Norman French rule in the South and Anglo-Norse rule in the Midlands and North. Who knows how long this state of affairs would last? I'd personally say the Anglo-Norse Kingdom would be in a more secure position than the Norman French one since the Normans are going to have to worry about any possible threats to their realms on the Continent while the Northerners have their backs secure.

Discuss.

 

[Norman]

Couple of points

It might work.

Interestingly, Tostig had already been Earl of Northumbria and was removed (I think officially by Edward, but militarily by Harold) and replaced by a cousin of Harold named Morcar, who was also brother of Edwin, Earl of Mercia. The reason Tostig was removed was because he was so damn bloody, killing and robbing many of his own subjects.

In OTL Morcar and Edwin met Harald Hardrada and were defeated, but if they could have been convinced to wait until joined by Harold Godwinson the outcome might have been different. In this ATL, the suggestion is that instead of them going North where they were defeated by Hardrada, they go south actually may work, but it will mean that William now faces a much larger army, even assuming that some of the Northern Fyrd stays north to defend their lands.

 

[Historico]

Now, even if the Norse most possibly are able to establish control over England could the Norwegian dynasty revitalize the Vinald colonize through England open Harbour's? Could the Norwegian's move westward and take the cities of Kiev and Novorgod?

 

[DuQuense]

Not able to dislodge the Norwegians William devotes more attention to his Normandy holdings, Allowing Scotland, & north england to remain in Norway's hands, the Norman's expand taking in the low countries along the coast. Not able to move north. the French focus on moving south into Spain and Italy.

 

[Flocculencio]

As for Vinland, that would be the pattern that Norman and I used in the anglo-Saxon TL we did last year- although with a different dynasty. At the very least, with the population base and resources of England, Haardraada would stand a very good chance of dominating all of Scandinavia and the rest of the British Isles once William had been dealt with.

Novgorod is an interesting one.The Grand Prince was married to Harald Godwinssons daughter so his court would be a logical refuge for any loyalists to Harald Godwinsson. However, with Tostig in a position of power, Godwinson loyalists might be more willing to make peace with the new regime, especially if Haardraada successfully defeats the man who destroyed Harald Godwinson- William the Bastard. I will have to do some more reading about Haardraada.

I can see Novgorod gaining close ties to, for want of a better term, Anglo-Scandinavia but I don't know if conquest would be practical. Perhaps a defensive alliance against Catholic Europe since the Pope had declared himself to be on William's side.

If there are strong ties between Anglo-Scandinavia and Novgorod, perhaps when the Mongols show up they might find that Novgorod seeks the asssistance of these powerful Northern allies. I think they'd still win but perhaps gain less dominance over Russia- by the end of the invasion, perhaps Russia is divided between Mongol vassals and Anglo-Scandinavian ones.

 

[Flocculencio]

Heres a tentative map of how things might look a year and a half after the War of 1066

 

[Midgard]

Now, even if the Norse most possibly are able to establish control over England could the Norwegian dynasty revitalize the Vinald colonize through England open Harbour's? Could the Norwegian's move westward and take the cities of Kiev and Novorgod?

Novgorod, maybe, considering it was not at the height of its power just then, and did not have much of a military muscle at the time. Kiev, unless we are talking huge butterflies, not likely at the time. In mid-XIth century, Kiev is at the height of her power, and is still a relatively powerful entity into beginning of the XIIIth century, plus there are many different princedoms and statelets that could serve as a buffer between Norwegians and Kiev. Before Rus' final fracturing into rival feudal states, even if the seeds of it had already been sown, Kiev still had an ability to present a unified front to most invaders as most other Russian states were technically its vassals.

 

[Norman]

"Russian Connection"

Actually a connection with Kiev is very possible. Harold Godwinson had two wives, (by coincidence, both were named Ealdgyth or Edith). One was the daughter of the Swedish King named Ealdgyth Schwanhals or Edith Swan neck. She had six children by Harold, one a daughter actually ended up marrying the Rus Prince of Kiev.

If you have Tostig decide to rid himself of the troublesome heirs to Harold, without killing them, or have Hardrada decide to put them safely out of the way in case he needs them later, they could send them to Kiev.

BTW the other wife was named Edith of Mercia, and was married to the rebellious king of Wales (Gythruth ap Lewellyn??), and she had one or two children by Harold.

 

[Thande]

I'm guessing that on your map the red area should really be 'Anglo-Norse' England, Flocculenio.

Sounds interesting...will there be forever union between northern England and Norway, or will we have a situation roughly analogous to OTL's Normans (Norway is conquered by, e.g., the Swedes, and Northern England goes it alone with the Norwegians gradually mostly acculturating to England rather than the other way around). This would be very interesting to me because it might produce my beloved Empire of Yorkshire and we might get an opportunity to kick the Southerners' arses!

Also might there be Norwegian interest in Scotland, given the 'Macbeth' war and the remaining hold over the Kingdom of Man?

 

[DuQuense]

map

OTL 1100 30 years post pod

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1100.htm

 

[Flocculencio]

I'm guessing that on your map the red area should really be 'Anglo-Norse' England, Flocculenio.

Sounds interesting...will there be forever union between northern England and Norway, or will we have a situation roughly analogous to OTL's Normans (Norway is conquered by, e.g., the Swedes, and Northern England goes it alone with the Norwegians gradually mostly acculturating to England rather than the other way around). This would be very interesting to me because it might produce my beloved Empire of Yorkshire and we might get an opportunity to kick the Southerners' arses!

Also might there be Norwegian interest in Scotland, given the 'Macbeth' war and the remaining hold over the Kingdom of Man?

Yeah- I just noticed the mistake. Anglo-Norse it is.

I'd think that with the additional resources of England under his control, Haardraada and his descendants would be able to conquer Sweden and Denmark rather than the other way around. Also, due to the economic power of the English part of this realm, political power would, in a few generations probably shift towards England with the court at York, ruling directly or through vassals over the expanse of territory from Iceland to Sweden. The Norse would probably become acculturated to England (culturally they weren't really THAT different from the Anglo-Saxons).

As for Scotland, once the Normans have been driven from their lands in the South of England, I'd think these would be logical targets- Scotland might not be conquered outright but would probably stand a good chance of becoming a de facto vassal (with daughters and younger sons of the Anglo-Norse dynasty marrying heavily into the royal family of Scotland). Ireland already has historic Norse settlement and these would be pushed further and further into the hinterland until the whole island was under Anglo-Norse control. Same with Wales. So possibly by, say the 13th C the Anglo-Norse empire might well consist of Iceland, Ireland, England, Wales, Norway and Sweden with, say, Scotland and Denmark as vassal states along with colonies along the N. American coastline- a popular place for outlaws and other exiles from society (defeated rebels, discredited churchmen and the like) to forge their new sagas.

 

[Historico]

Is it possible for the Welsh to establish Permanet colonies in North America? I heard about Prince Madoc establish an colony in Georgia and they became the Maddon tribes of the Northwest?

 

[MerryPrankster]

Is it possible for the Welsh to establish Permanet colonies in North America? I heard about Prince Madoc establish an colony in Georgia and they became the Maddon tribes of the Northwest?

I think he (allegedly) landed somewhere along the Gulf Coast and the Welsh's descendants became the Mandan Indians, but you've got the gist of the story right.

In the Anglo-Saxon TL, they had a "New Wales" that was basically Cuba, I think.

 

[Flocculencio]

Yeah basically Vinland is going to become the refuge for any upstart or failed rebel to flee to to carve out his own little fief.

Europe, however, will look interesting. Now there will be two major possible targets for the Pope to declare a Crusade against; the Muslims and the Northern Heretics. The German states could well become pawns in the struggle between the Papacy and the Northern Realm.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Yeah basically Vinland is going to become the refuge for any upstart or failed rebel to flee to to carve out his own little fief.

Europe, however, will look interesting. Now there will be two major possible targets for the Pope to declare a Crusade against; the Muslims and the Northern Heretics. The German states could well become pawns in the struggle between the Papacy and the Northern Realm.

"Northern Heretics"? What heresies have they adopted? Or is the Pope simply peeved that his pet Normans got slapped down (which you said will eventually happen).

 

[Flocculencio]

"Northern Heretics"? What heresies have they adopted? Or is the Pope simply peeved that his pet Normans got slapped down (which you said will eventually happen).

I was thinking that just as the Pope excommunicated Harald Godwinsson, he might do the same for the Haardraada. Or maybe we could take a leaf out of Norman's thread and have Orthodox Christianity spread from Novgorod and Kiev to the North. European Catholicism would be encircled by Islam and the Orthodox Slavs and Northmen.

As for the Normans being ultimately being unable to hold the South of England, I think that the Normans would indeed eventually get slapped down for the following reasons:

In the immediate aftermath of Hastings, William would probably do best not to seek combat with the Haardraada's forces- Harald managed to land unopposed and with Tostig Godwinsson as his vassal would probably be able to gain more support from the English nobility once the news of the defeat of Harald Godwinsson spread. Thus, William has his battered army and has to face Haardraada's fresh Norse troops along with whatever English troops rally to Tostig's banner. Actually, I think it's more likely that William might find himself being pushed straight back into the Channel in the spring of 1067 if Haardraada decides to force the issue.

 

[Norman]

I was thinking that just as the Pope excommunicated Harald Godwinsson, he might do the same for the Haardraada. Or maybe we could take a leaf out of Norman's thread and have Orthodox Christianity spread from Novgorod and Kiev to the North. European Catholicism would be encircled by Islam and the Orthodox Slavs and Northmen.

This brings up a very interesting possibility. If Roman Catholicism is encircled to the North by Anglo-Orthodox and in the East by Greek Orthodox, might the Roman Church spread South?

What if the RC Church actually becomes more involved in a 'crusade' in Spain against the Moors. driving them from Spain, but then rather than stopping, continuing into North Africa? In this ATL, they drive out the Islam, and either settle or convert the North Africans. Northern Europe Grows out into the 'Americas, Eastern into Asia and Russia, and SOuthern Europe into Africa.

 

[Flocculencio]

This brings up a very interesting possibility. If Roman Catholicism is encircled to the North by Anglo-Orthodox and in the East by Greek Orthodox, might the Roman Church spread South?

What if the RC Church actually becomes more involved in a 'crusade' in Spain against the Moors. driving them from Spain, but then rather than stopping, continuing into North Africa? In this ATL, they drive out the Islam, and either settle or convert the North Africans. Northern Europe Grows out into the 'Americas, Eastern into Asia and Russia, and SOuthern Europe into Africa.

This is interesting- how would these three "mega-cultures" (Byzantine Orthodox, Anglo-Norse-Orthodox and Roman Catholic) develop?

The Anglo-Norse could become the merchant princes of the North Atlantic ferrying trade goods to the Americas and bringing back holds stuffed with tobacco and furs. The Mongol Invasion might see that start of a Northern Crusade to claim the rightful territory of the Norsemen from the hands of the Golden Horde. Or possibly they might decide to simply leave Novgorod and Muscovy out to dry and push on farther into the Americas. Either way, with its monopoly on the Americas, the Anglo-Norse Empire might become one of the richest nations in Europe. And of course there's always the possibility of a few crusades in the Americas

With territory in N. Africa possibly a Holy Roman Empire might arise, centred around the Mediterrenean instead of in Northern Europe. Do they take back Jerusalem? Or are the Empire and the Caliphate going to be locked in endless combat in the Levant?

The Rus, as I said earlier have the problem of the Mongols to face down. Will they be able to hold the Golden Horde back with the groups of warriors from Scandinavia flowing in to fight alongside their Rus brothers for booty? Is the Horde stopped at the Urals? Does the push back across the Steppes begin centuries earlier in TTL?

 

[Historico]

Flocculencio, I think you got some good ideas you should devop into an Timeline

 

[Flocculencio]

I would like to do a TL- the problem here is that last year I started a TL with the POD of William Godwinson winning Hastings. Norman and I developed this TL into an AH story (with numerous spin off stories) on the fiction section of this forum. To make a worthwhile TL out of this I'm going to have to try to make it different enough from the premise of the previous TL (since in both, we end up with a Scandinavian Empire centred around England). However, I'll give it a think and I'm sure I can figure some interesting stuff out, esp with the wars to reclaim the South of England from the Normans.