anne witnesses James iii birth

Random query, we know that Anne spread the rumour that her brother was a warming pan baby, and thus illegitimate, and she did this as she’d fallen out of favour with her father. Had she been present at the boys birth and then James ii had died a few days later, would Anne have taken the regency and would that have stopped the glorious revolution.?
 
Anne would likely have told people she saw them bring the baby in. She didn't like her stepmother nor did she want a Roman Catholic monarch (James Francis Edward, her half-brother). If her father died a' few days later', it's likely JFE would go the way of his older siblings (convulsions, if there was no convenient smallpox epidemic around) and Mary of Modena would leave England for a convent on the continent (or perhaps another marriage).

Mary of Modena was a devout Catholic; I'm not sure she'd feel safe in England without her husband. Also, even if little Jim survived, he'd be raised CoE. The Dowager Queen would little or no say over her son, whose life would be controlled by the Regency Council - of which she would not a member. She would see him on formal occasions. The council would take no chances of a conversion a la Charles II or James II.

I'm gonna go with: if James II dies within a week of his son's birth, Parliament legally declares James Francis Edward a pretender, with Princess Anne giving evidence to this effect (perhaps another stillbirth). Parliament then invites William and Mary to take the throne. Mary of Modena leaves England without the child, as he's not hers and the boy disappears from the historical record while his mother mourns.
 
Anne would likely have told people she saw them bring the baby in. She didn't like her stepmother nor did she want a Roman Catholic monarch (James Francis Edward, her half-brother). If her father died a' few days later', it's likely JFE would go the way of his older siblings (convulsions, if there was no convenient smallpox epidemic around) and Mary of Modena would leave England for a convent on the continent (or perhaps another marriage).

Mary of Modena was a devout Catholic; I'm not sure she'd feel safe in England without her husband. Also, even if little Jim survived, he'd be raised CoE. The Dowager Queen would little or no say over her son, whose life would be controlled by the Regency Council - of which she would not a member. She would see him on formal occasions. The council would take no chances of a conversion a la Charles II or James II.

I'm gonna go with: if James II dies within a week of his son's birth, Parliament legally declares James Francis Edward a pretender, with Princess Anne giving evidence to this effect (perhaps another stillbirth). Parliament then invites William and Mary to take the throne. Mary of Modena leaves England without the child, as he's not hers and the boy disappears from the historical record while his mother mourns.
Hmm interesting, would others who witnessed the birth go along with this?
 
What would be needed for James Francis to ascend the throne without the risk of being called a pretender, if his father dies?
 
And if his father dies when he's a baby?

Before his mother took him and fled? I think that could have lead to full scale civil war... but the smart move would have been for them to head out immediately. If he got captured and his mother was exiled... well, that solves the problem of the Old Pretender. He would obviously be raised Protestant. At that point it would depend on William and Mary. I doubt if they would just step back, and honestly it would have been for the best to just ignore the child for a while. Ironically this both solves and creates a bunch of problems.
 
Before his mother took him and fled? I think that could have lead to full scale civil war... but the smart move would have been for them to head out immediately. If he got captured and his mother was exiled... well, that solves the problem of the Old Pretender. He would obviously be raised Protestant. At that point it would depend on William and Mary. I doubt if they would just step back, and honestly it would have been for the best to just ignore the child for a while. Ironically this both solves and creates a bunch of problems.
So you don't think that if James II dies either before his son is born or just after, the boy would th be made king? The bit has a superior claim to Mary and William. He is also better suited to being shaped by a regenxy
 
Hmm interesting, would others who witnessed the birth go along with this?

IIRC the problem came in that most of the Protestant ladies in waiting were absent for some reason, while the Catholic ones were around when Maria Beatrice went into labour. Further "proof" of the changeling's birth was the fact that she (Maria Beatrice) had refused to allow anyone to touch the belly while she was pregnant, plus her saying all along that she would spend the confinement at Windsor (or wherever not where she eventually gave birth) and then staying at the palace where she did.

Personally, I've never understood why Maria would've needed a warming pan in June (summer) when JFES was born. I think I read in one bio that it was actually sweltering hot the day he was born, which made it all the more unlikely.

So, if Anne's witnessing, and the Protestant ladies-in-waiting aren't absent there's less likelihood of a denial of legitimacy. Anne can say it was a changeling, but if the Protestant wife of some or other Tory lord(s) confirms the legitimacy who's going to be believed? Maria going away for the confinement however, is likely to cause still more rumours.
 
So you don't think that if James II dies either before his son is born or just after, the boy would th be made king? The bit has a superior claim to Mary and William. He is also better suited to being shaped by a regenxy

Now having actually reading the previous replies, I agree with desmirelle. The child would just be declared illegitimate (and probably raised Protestant as a precaution anyway). As for the witnesses... well, they were basically ignored in OTL, so...
 
IIRC the problem came in that most of the Protestant ladies in waiting were absent for some reason, while the Catholic ones were around when Maria Beatrice went into labour. Further "proof" of the changeling's birth was the fact that she (Maria Beatrice) had refused to allow anyone to touch the belly while she was pregnant, plus her saying all along that she would spend the confinement at Windsor (or wherever not where she eventually gave birth) and then staying at the palace where she did.

Personally, I've never understood why Maria would've needed a warming pan in June (summer) when JFES was born. I think I read in one bio that it was actually sweltering hot the day he was born, which made it all the more unlikely.

So, if Anne's witnessing, and the Protestant ladies-in-waiting aren't absent there's less likelihood of a denial of legitimacy. Anne can say it was a changeling, but if the Protestant wife of some or other Tory lord(s) confirms the legitimacy who's going to be believed? Maria going away for the confinement however, is likely to cause still more rumours.
Hmm interesting, Was the reason of the so called warming pan going to be q significant obstacle to James coming to the throne as ab infant? Considering infants are easier to control than adults
 
Now having actually reading the previous replies, I agree with desmirelle. The child would just be declared illegitimate (and probably raised Protestant as a precaution anyway). As for the witnesses... well, they were basically ignored in OTL, so...
Why though? Politically it makes no sense
 
For those who wanted to exert some more control over the king. And for those in favour of the actual succession

And for those who prefer a male, English-born monarch to a woman or a Dutchman with continental entanglements.

I'm with you, the simplest solution (in a scenario where James II is dead) is shunting Maria Beatrice off somewhere (back to the continent?) and raising James III Protestant. Trying to delegitimise/disinherit him is legally iffy and could lead to kerfuffles in the future.
 
And for those who prefer a male, English-born monarch to a woman or a Dutchman with continental entanglements.

I'm with you, the simplest solution (in a scenario where James II is dead) is shunting Maria Beatrice off somewhere (back to the continent?) and raising James III Protestant. Trying to delegitimise/disinherit him is legally iffy and could lead to kerfuffles in the future.
Agreed, the Denmarks I think would serve as regents alongside perhaps their allies from otl
 
If James II dies a few days after the birth of Jimmy, his mother will see him when the Regency Council decides. He will be raised Protestant and his mother and her known allies will not be allowed unsupervised visitation or private conversations with the child. If Jimmy is taken away by mum and her buds, he will be declared "dead" and any child Mary of Modena claims is her son will be deemed a pretender. Enter William and Mary. Without James II (hell, even with him), Mary of Modena is not a power-wielder. (Although I understand she was more charming than her husband.)

V asked if Anne had witnessed the birth, would it stop her from spreading rumors of a changeling (and the warming pan wasn't the only way to smuggle a changeling in). I don't think so. And: what it boils down to is the fear of a Catholic monarch; that would be the impetus for CoE lady witnesses to support Anne's story of a stillbirth and a switch. And if James II dies on top of this, Dowager Queen Mary is shit out of luck. If Anne and her cronies win the day, the child will not be allowed to leave England with Mary of Modena (she's not his mother, you see). If James II dies before the rumor gets around, I imagine the child will be safer in England, raised as a good CoE as above by the Regency Council (although Anne might be his physical guardian since she's in England) - with the above restrictions.
 
If James II dies a few days after the birth of Jimmy, his mother will see him when the Regency Council decides. He will be raised Protestant and his mother and her known allies will not be allowed unsupervised visitation or private conversations with the child. If Jimmy is taken away by mum and her buds, he will be declared "dead" and any child Mary of Modena claims is her son will be deemed a pretender. Enter William and Mary. Without James II (hell, even with him), Mary of Modena is not a power-wielder. (Although I understand she was more charming than her husband.)

V asked if Anne had witnessed the birth, would it stop her from spreading rumors of a changeling (and the warming pan wasn't the only way to smuggle a changeling in). I don't think so. And: what it boils down to is the fear of a Catholic monarch; that would be the impetus for CoE lady witnesses to support Anne's story of a stillbirth and a switch. And if James II dies on top of this, Dowager Queen Mary is shit out of luck. If Anne and her cronies win the day, the child will not be allowed to leave England with Mary of Modena (she's not his mother, you see). If James II dies before the rumor gets around, I imagine the child will be safer in England, raised as a good CoE as above by the Regency Council (although Anne might be his physical guardian since she's in England) - with the above restrictions.
James dying before the rumour gets around sounds good to me
 
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