Anglo-Portuguese War(s) in South America?

yofie

Banned
Britain and Portugal have been allies for several hundred years, and at worst have only been involved in disputes and ultimatums (except when Portugal and Spain were united from 1580 to 1640 and were thus on the opposite side from England). I'm thinking, for example, of the British Ultimatum of 1880 telling Portugal to get out of the way between Angola and Mozambique in southern Africa.

Concerning South America, if the British had been able to grab a foothold of somewhere in Spanish South America (e.g. Argentina or Peru or Venezuela) and there were territorial disputes with the Portuguese Empire, in the early 1800s, would there have been just disputes and ultimatums but not war? Would it have been the same thing between any of those British places and Brazil shortly after the latter's independence in 1822?
 
Britain and Portugal have been allies for several hundred years, and at worst have only been involved in disputes and ultimatums (except when Portugal and Spain were united from 1580 to 1640 and were thus on the opposite side from England). I'm thinking, for example, of the British Ultimatum of 1880 telling Portugal to get out of the way between Angola and Mozambique in southern Africa.

Concerning South America, if the British had been able to grab a foothold of somewhere in Spanish South America (e.g. Argentina or Peru or Venezuela) and there were territorial disputes with the Portuguese Empire, in the early 1800s, would there have been just disputes and ultimatums but not war? Would it have been the same thing between any of those British places and Brazil shortly after the latter's independence in 1822?

In a situation with a British Argentina, there could certainly be tension with Brazil. However, given the amount of British capital funding business in Brazil, it's quite possible the politics of Brazil might have a populist anti-British and an elite pro-British faction. Which side the Portuguese government sides with likely would depend on power politics and diplomatic alliances in Europe, so it could go either way.
 
There's OTL Guyana: Amazon forest border, not much to fight about.
A British Argentina scenario would indeed be the most plausible scenario of conflict but... meh... The Portuguese were pushing towards the River Plate IOTL mostly because the Spanish empire was crumbling. (1) They would respect the established Brazilian-Argentinian borders if Argentina was British.

Except... Eastern Missions was occupied by the Portuguese in 1801 but it was lawfully Spanish/Argentinian. In a scenario where the UK takes over Argentina in 1806 they may claim it but... was that territory that valuable?

EDIT:
(1) I mean in the early XIXth century.
 
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Except... Eastern Missions was occupied by the Portuguese in 1801 but it was lawfully Spanish/Argentinian. In a scenario where the UK takes over Argentina in 1806 they may claim it but... was that territory that valuable?

That's roughly modern Uruguay isn't it?

I think that Britain would be happy to let Portugal have Uruguay if they've got Buenos Aries and large parts of Argentina.
 
Perhaps it could be easier if the English had conquered some region of Brazil during the Iberian Union as the Dutch did. If Portugal still manages to become independent from Spain later we would have a situation where England has a more important and disputed border with the Portuguese in South America, and it could be the cause for later conflicts and war.

During the Iberian Union there were some English factories installed in the Amazon region, but the most important attacks were made by Thomas Cavendish against Santos and São Vicente (in nowadays the state of São Paulo) between 1588 and 1591. Also, James Lancaster invaded Recife in 1595 and held it for nearly a month.
 
It would be interesting to see what the British response would have been if Portugal were the dominant European power in India in the early half of the 18th century, a la France (i.e. with a big sphere of influence but not big enough to be secure in their primacy). Would India be too big of a jewel in the crown to resist? And would it be too valuable to share?
 

yofie

Banned
That's roughly modern Uruguay isn't it?

I think that Britain would be happy to let Portugal have Uruguay if they've got Buenos Aries and large parts of Argentina.

But if Britain takes over Buenos Aires, it also takes over Montevideo and the rest of the coastal Banda Oriental (present-day Uruguay). After all, Britain captured Montevideo and two other spots in the Banda Oriental during its invasions of the Rio de la Plata.
 

yofie

Banned
A British Argentina scenario would indeed be the most plausible scenario of conflict but... meh... The Portuguese were pushing towards the River Plate IOTL mostly because the Spanish empire was crumbling. (1) They would respect the established Brazilian-Argentinian borders if Argentina was British.

EDIT:
(1) I mean in the early XIXth century.

But I thought also that the Portuguese (and subsequently the Brazilians) wanted to take control of the Banda Oriental so that it could have access to the Rio de la Plata, a very strategic waterway. So perhaps if the Banda Oriental as well as the Buenos Aires region becomes British, then the Portuguese/Brazilians would desire to take over the Banda Oriental anyway. You're right, though, in that the reason why in OTL Portugal/Brazil was allowed by the United Provinces of La Plata to occupy and then annex the Banda Oriental was because both Brazil and the United Provinces regarded the Liga Federal (based in Montevideo) as a threat.

I've been thinking that during the time that the Portuguese and the Brazilians were at odds with one another as Brazil was becoming independent in 1822-23, the British and the Portuguese would remain staunch allies while the British and the Brazilians would be willing to fight briefly over the Uruguay/Rio Grande do Sul area to settle the border. Maybe not full-fledged war, but perhaps skirmishes or a bloodless war, followed invariably by a treaty and a strong and enduring friendship between Great Britain and Brazil. In other words, at that time, Brazil would want to expand just in general (e.g. to Uruguay), and the British would want to expand where it can in South America (i.e. to Rio Grande do Sul), and they could eventually come up with a compromise after some possible fighting. Does that sound plausible?
 
But I thought also that the Portuguese (and subsequently the Brazilians) wanted to take control of the Banda Oriental so that it could have access to the Rio de la Plata, a very strategic waterway. So perhaps if the Banda Oriental as well as the Buenos Aires region becomes British, then the Portuguese/Brazilians would desire to take over the Banda Oriental anyway. You're right, though, in that the reason why in OTL Portugal/Brazil was allowed by the United Provinces of La Plata to occupy and then annex the Banda Oriental was because both Brazil and the United Provinces regarded the Liga Federal (based in Montevideo) as a threat.
That's right. That was why I edited it: reaching the River Plate was indeed an old Portuguese ambition. But they'd hardly be so bold in trying to enforce their ambitions against British territory. The Pink Map situation was a bit different.

I've been thinking that during the time that the Portuguese and the Brazilians were at odds with one another as Brazil was becoming independent in 1822-23, the British and the Portuguese would remain staunch allies while the British and the Brazilians would be willing to fight briefly over the Uruguay/Rio Grande do Sul area to settle the border. Maybe not full-fledged war, but perhaps skirmishes or a bloodless war, followed invariably by a treaty and a strong and enduring friendship between Great Britain and Brazil. In other words, at that time, Brazil would want to expand just in general (e.g. to Uruguay), and the British would want to expand where it can in South America (i.e. to Rio Grande do Sul), and they could eventually come up with a compromise after some possible fighting. Does that sound plausible?
I think the same applies to independent Brazil: they wouldn't risk a needless war with the UK just to reach the River Plate and I don't know why would the British want to bully their way into Rio Grande do Sul.
But - heck - with a British Argentina a lot of butterflies will start to kick in and Portuguese/Brazilian-British relations can go south for a variety of reasons.
 

yofie

Banned
That's right. That was why I edited it: reaching the River Plate was indeed an old Portuguese ambition. But they'd hardly be so bold in trying to enforce their ambitions against British territory. The Pink Map situation was a bit different.

So it sounds like it's one thing to desire to take over an area like that, but quite another to actually even attempt to do so (the latter depending on who controls the area in question)?

When you say the Pink Map situation, do you mean the 1890 British Ultimatum in southern Africa? If so, was it a bit different because in that case it was Cecil Rhodes and his desire for a Cape-Cairo Railway?
 

yofie

Banned
I think the same applies to independent Brazil: they wouldn't risk a needless war with the UK just to reach the River Plate and I don't know why would the British want to bully their way into Rio Grande do Sul.
But - heck - with a British Argentina a lot of butterflies will start to kick in and Portuguese/Brazilian-British relations can go south for a variety of reasons.

Assuming that such relations don't sour ATL, would there have been less likelihood of such fighting than between the Americans and the British with a) the Aroostook War in Maine and New Brunswick and b) the Oregon dispute (e.g. 54'40" or Fight), which both did not OTL result in actual fighting?
 
So it sounds like it's one thing to desire to take over an area like that, but quite another to actually even attempt to do so (the latter depending on who controls the area in question)?

When you say the Pink Map situation, do you mean the 1890 British Ultimatum in southern Africa? If so, was it a bit different because in that case it was Cecil Rhodes and his desire for a Cape-Cairo Railway?
Yes, by the Pink Map situation I meant the 1890 British Ultimatum. I believe it was different because the Portuguese were trying to annex African indigenous territories that weren't already directly claimed by any European power: the Portuguese were not invading British territory and were most definitely not trying to pick a fight.
In the scenario that the British successful annex (at least part of) the River Plate Vice-Royalty, if the Portuguese invade, well... they would be invading British territory (or at least perceived as such). It would be a declaration of war.

Assuming that such relations don't sour ATL, would there have been less likelihood of such fighting than between the Americans and the British with a) the Aroostook War in Maine and New Brunswick and b) the Oregon dispute (e.g. 54'40" or Fight), which both did not OTL result in actual fighting?
Perhaps the Eastern Missions could be a point of contention but it would not be worth a fight IMHO... I don't know how likely would meaningless border disputes be...
 

yofie

Banned
In the scenario that the British successful annex (at least part of) the River Plate Vice-Royalty, if the Portuguese invade, well... they would be invading British territory (or at least perceived as such). It would be a declaration of war.

I guess the lack of such a war would increase the likelihood of Uruguay being a part of Argentina unto the present day? Although I know that Uruguay became a separate country in part because of the historical rivalry between the ports of Buenos Aires and Montevideo as well, and so that no country would control the entire Rio de la Plata estuary.

Perhaps the Eastern Missions could be a point of contention but it would not be worth a fight IMHO... I don't know how likely would meaningless border disputes be...

The way I understand, OTL Uruguay (as an independent country) claimed the Eastern Missions, despite practically belonging to Brazil, until the 1851 Uruguay-Brazil treaty fixed its common boundary with Brazil.
 
I guess the lack of such a war would increase the likelihood of Uruguay being a part of Argentina unto the present day? Although I know that Uruguay became a separate country in part because of the historical rivalry between the ports of Buenos Aires and Montevideo as well, and so that no country would control the entire Rio de la Plata estuary.

The lesser of 2 evils for Brazil and Argentina. Brazil was happy that at least Uruguay wasn't ruled by Argentina and Argentina was happy that at least Uruguay wasn't ruled by Brazil. A good old buffer state.
The lurking UK was even happier that the River Plate wasn't dominated by a sole country, like you said.

With no Portuguese-Brazilian intervention in Uruguay it'd probably end up Argentinian, yes.
 
The lesser of 2 evils for Brazil and Argentina. Brazil was happy that at least Uruguay wasn't ruled by Argentina and Argentina was happy that at least Uruguay wasn't ruled by Brazil. A good old buffer state.
The lurking UK was even happier that the River Plate wasn't dominated by a sole country, like you said.

With no Portuguese-Brazilian intervention in Uruguay it'd probably end up Argentinian, yes.

You can say that Uruguay was a country created by the British to annoy both Brazil and Argentina. ;)
 
You can say that Uruguay was a country created by the British to annoy both Brazil and Argentina. ;)

They tended to do that. :)

(I don't know if that quote from De Gaulle about Belgium is accurate or just a myth. If he said that he had either a good sense of humour or he was a really bitter and cranky man. :D)
 
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