Anglo-German Naval War

Sort of coming from this thread.
If the Germans and English engaged in a naval war (disragarde the POD for now) and England crushed Germany how would everything come over. I mean how would the rest of the world react and stuff.
 
It is kind of hard to disregard the POD. the nature of the war is fairly important. Specifically, a European shooting war betweren two major powers is going to drag in other countries, through alliances and opprotunism and flashpoints and other events. And without knowing that information about the war, musing on the impact of the war on Europe is somewhat moot.
 
It is kind of hard to disregard the POD. the nature of the war is fairly important. Specifically, a European shooting war betweren two major powers is going to drag in other countries, through alliances and opprotunism and flashpoints and other events. And without knowing that information about the war, musing on the impact of the war on Europe is somewhat moot.

Checkmate113

Fully agree with what Atreus says. The devil is always in the detail. Why the two nations are fighting is as important as how since it is a major factor in their aims and hence when and under what conditions it ends.

Also I notice you make no mention of a date. Presuming you mean during the dreadnought race from 1905-1914 but circumstances differed ever over that period of time. Some clash in the 30s or 40's or even say over German support for the Boers in ~1900 is different again in many ways.

Steve
 
I was specifically looking at an escalation of the Agadir Crisis.

Long story short, Germany gets crushed. As of July, 1911, Britain had a total of ten dreadnoughts in commission, with another four launched. In addition, the Royal navy had another four battlecruisers comissioned, with three more launched. Almost as significantly, the four british Battleships launched but not comissioned were the Orions, the first of the super-battleships. There were other vessels in the shipyards as well; the King George V and Centurion, both KGV class, and the Battlecruiser Australia (Indefagitable class) were both launched by the end of the year. In addition, the royal navy still has a huge mess of pre-dreadnoughts floating around somewhere, waiting for a rainy day (not certain how many exactly were still around at the time, but it was a fairly large number).

Now let's take a look at Germany. Their entire dreadnought total comes to the four ships of the Nassau class. Plus the battlecruiser Von der Tann (with an additional one launched and to be commissioned by the end of the year, and another to be launched in 1911). And the old Blucher, of course. Now, the naval balance of power is nowhere nearly as severe as this sounds, it is true. One of the Helgoland class (Thuringer if I remember correctly) has been launched, and a total of three will be launched and commissioned by years end. Another three Kaisers will be launched by the end of 1911, although none will reach commission until the next year.

So, when war breaks out (assuming July 1911), the Germans are outnumbered 10:4 in dreadnoughts, and 4:1 in battlecruisers (4:2 if I feel generous and count Blucher). Year's end makes those totals 10:7 and 4:3 (counting Blucher). Not great odds for the British, but given the quality of early pre-dreadnoughts, the impending arrival of the Orions, and the massive british advantage in pre-dreadnoughts, battlecruisers, escorts, and shipbuilding capacity, probably good enough. To give a sense of the future, OTL saw the British commission all four Orions, along with a pair of KGVs (KGV and Audacious), and possibly what would become Agincourt if construction is hurried (same aplies for the last two KGVs). Against this, Germans add the last Helgoland and a pair of Kaisers (ITTL, maybe three if they are lucky). On the Battlecruiser front, the British get New Zealand and two Lions, while the germans get goeben, and maybe Seydlitz if they hurry and are lucky. So assuming no battle loses, the total stands at 16:10 in dreadnoughts and 7:4 in battlecruisers (even with goeben)(seydlitz, the other Kaisers and KGVs, and other possible hurried constructions are ignored here). Even starting with both navies wiped out at the end of 1911, the totals would be 6:3 and 3:1, with a british qualitative edge (in my view, at least). Germany only falls farther behind the longer this goes on as well.

This leaves out other factors. france, for instance, is not going to stand by and let the Germans take Morocco. I'm not certain of the land war's result, but I think france can at least fight germany to a stalemate. Other nations may join the entente in this one, while germany did a rather good job of isolating itself diplomatically from potential help.

Germany had a narrow window where, assuming that they were willing to pay the price, they could have matched the british in a naval war tonne for tonne. However, it was a very fleeting window, basically just the opening of the dreadnought era. More to the point, 1911 is about where that window ends. They will be formidable in this war, but the Royal navy can probably eliminate the misnamed High seas fleet .
 
So what happens afterwords? Actually the Germans had another four Dreadnaughts in the water that in OTL could be finished by August. So it isn't that mismatched.

But more importantly what happens if Germany loses.
 

MrP

Banned
So what happens afterwords? Actually the Germans had another four Dreadnaughts in the water that in OTL could be finished by August. So it isn't that mismatched.

But more importantly what happens if Germany loses.

RN complacency - to a degree. Might persuade Germany to give up on naval construction, but might have the oppostie effect. America will be as Dread-happy as IOTL (since she could hardly get more so!).
 
So what happens afterwords? Actually the Germans had another four Dreadnaughts in the water that in OTL could be finished by August. So it isn't that mismatched.

Which ones? I know that I listed the disparity going from 10:4 to 10:7 by december. Is that what you are refering to? I thought I accounted for every ship that was commissioned, or under construction up through 1913.

But more importantly what happens if Germany loses.

depends on the nature of the defeat.
 
[Standard correction mode]
What about the Scotish and Irish sailors? Do they not fight?
Its the UK.
[/Standard correction mode]
:p
 
RN complacency - to a degree. Might persuade Germany to give up on naval construction, but might have the oppostie effect. America will be as Dread-happy as IOTL (since she could hardly get more so!).

MrP

May be. May not. If Britain quickly crushes the German naval threat then the US could decide a naval race with Britain is not worth it at this point. [At least especially if this means there's less tension in Europe, let alone a massive war draining Britain's treasury and will]. Alternatively, although very unlikely, you could have an extreme nationalistic reaction, with the navalists demanding that the US outbuild Britain to prevent Britain Copenhaging them.

A more likely factor, although contradicting the OP, is the most likely event. The Germans realise their heavily outnumbered and stay in port, as they largely did in 1914-18. As such people start questioning the primarcy of dreadnoughts.

Steve
 

MrP

Banned
MrP

May be. May not. If Britain quickly crushes the German naval threat then the US could decide a naval race with Britain is not worth it at this point. [At least especially if this means there's less tension in Europe, let alone a massive war draining Britain's treasury and will]. Alternatively, although very unlikely, you could have an extreme nationalistic reaction, with the navalists demanding that the US outbuild Britain to prevent Britain Copenhaging them.

A more likely factor, although contradicting the OP, is the most likely event. The Germans realise their heavily outnumbered and stay in port, as they largely did in 1914-18. As such people start questioning the primarcy of dreadnoughts.

Steve

I think you're right, aye. Alcohol is inhibiting my analytical capabilities. It does indeed depend on how the RN wins.
 
I can't see any serious UK-USA naval race: different commitments and world interests, to say nothing of economic and social ties.

Probably a watchful gaze, but not an unabashed naval arms race.
 
So what happens afterwords?

But more importantly what happens if Germany loses.

To answer this, one would need to know if the war escalates and develops on land too. Are the French really going to pass this occasion? Are the British not going to find land-based allies as is their long-standing tradition?
 
When did the RN abandon the concept of close blockade ? I thought it was shelved fairly late in the day. If they try to take one of the Friesians and blockade the Bight, they could find themselves losing badly to torpedocraft and what one assumes will be a German dedication to the submarine (since this is coastal water, it doesn't matter how early these designs are)

Zepellin torpedo bombers ?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
To whoever asked the German Dreadnaughts are the Thuringen, Ostfreisland and Helgoland. Those are the ones commissioned in August.

So here is what could happen.

1. Britain sends ships in response to the arrival of the Panther.
2. Germany sends ships in response to the British response.
3. Britain intercepts German ships in the channel and tells them to go home without a fight.
4. Germans refuse.
5. British open fire (possibly by accident) and kill several German sailors.
6. Germans demand an apology.
7. No apology given (because to the British it is justified).
8. Germany declares war.
9. Britain and France declare war.
It's obviously not perfect but it's a start.

Now what happens? Do the Russians support the British and do the Austrians support the Germans?

How fast can Germany lose.
 
To whoever asked the German Dreadnaughts are the Thuringen, Ostfreisland and Helgoland. Those are the ones commissioned in August.

So here is what could happen.

1. Britain sends ships in response to the arrival of the Panther.
2. Germany sends ships in response to the British response.
3. Britain intercepts German ships in the channel and tells them to go home without a fight.
4. Germans refuse.
5. British open fire (possibly by accident) and kill several German sailors.
6. Germans demand an apology.
7. No apology given (because to the British it is justified).
8. Germany declares war.
9. Britain and France declare war.
It's obviously not perfect but it's a start.

Now what happens? Do the Russians support the British and do the Austrians support the Germans?

How fast can Germany lose.

This appears to be a repeat of an WI from last year. We also discussed that its pretty unlikely that there would be any 'accidental fire'.
 
It is entirely possible. We just need to tweak the circumstances. We need one side to have different orders from the other. When the British say stop the Germans say no because their orders are to continue to Agadir at all costs. The Germans keep going. The British have to stop the Germans, so they fire a shot across their bow. The Germans take it as an attack and fire back. That's when it goes to pieces.
 
Not really, because the British already had a head start. Which is why we are mostly talking about the Germans losing and what happens afterwords.
 
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