Anglo-German Alliance instead of Anglo-French?

amphibulous

Banned
How would be the best way to forge an Anglo-German alliance rather than the OTL Anglo-French alliance?

The British only allied with continental powers for two reasons:

1. To stop any power becoming dominant on the Continent

2. To counter any power that attempted to challenge British naval supremacy (which was a stupid thing to do, as the British didn't need much of an army and could put their money into ships instead.)

So you'd need the Germans to avoid a naval race, to concentrate on preserving the status quo, and for someone else to threaten dominance. Maybe a Russian-French alliance, especially if the French got in a naval race with Britain?
 
I don't think this is possible the German empire was not a wishing a status quo but wanted to establish themselve as the main european power by war if neccessary. And France did not have the ressources to threathen the balance of power anymore.
 
I don't think this is possible the German empire was not a wishing a status quo but wanted to establish themselve as the main european power by war if neccessary. And France did not have the ressources to threathen the balance of power anymore.

Hence, we can butterfly AWAY OTL's German Empire, either getting rid of the push for a pan-German state (no Napoleon?), or having different leadership take the reigns of Germany that WON'T breach the status quo.

I never did understand before why Britain and France aligned themselves together so much in the past century, when historically they were at each other's throats (with good reason). An Anglo-German alliance seems, for lack of a better word, more appropriate than an Anglo-French one. That's just an opinion though, with no logical basis.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
I never did understand before why Britain and France aligned themselves together so much in the past century, when historically they were at each other's throats (with good reason). An Anglo-German alliance seems, for lack of a better word, more appropriate than an Anglo-French one. That's just an opinion though, with no logical basis.

Britain's main foreign policy objective has always been the prevention of any single power from establishing dominion over all Europe. This is why they allied with Prussia when France was the most powerful state in Europe and then allied with France when Germany was the most powerful state in Europe. You can pretty much always count on the British to ally with the second-most powerful state in Europe.
 
Britain's main foreign policy objective has always been the prevention of any single power from establishing dominion over all Europe. This is why they allied with Prussia when France was the most powerful state in Europe and then allied with France when Germany was the most powerful state in Europe. You can pretty much always count on the British to ally with the second-most powerful state in Europe.
So perhaps have a victorious France in the Franco-Prussian war, which would establish France as the most powerful state in the Continent?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
So perhaps have a victorious France in the Franco-Prussian war, which would establish France as the most powerful state in the Continent?

Possibly, yes. But I think a more realistic POD would have the French intervene on behalf of the Austrians in 1866.
 
Joseph Chamberlain worked hard on this

and in the late 1890s Anglo-French rivalry almost came to blows twice in quick succession, first over Niger and second at Fashoda.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Weaker Germany not united. Especially if you can maintain Hannoverian succession sharing the same monarch as UK.
 
I don't think you can do much to augment French power.

But Russia is another story. There was very real fear and loathing in London of the Russian colossus - and not just because of the threat to British India and British interests in China.

An Anglo-German combine could end up being a legitimate reaction to a looming Russian hegemony a Russia using France as its ally in continental Europe.

You could look at Carlton Bach's ongoing timeline in the pre-1900 forum for an example of how that could play out in the first decade of the 20th century.
 
That would be like a repeat of the 18th century. An British-Prussian Alliance versus a Franco-Austrian one.

Agreed, although if your timeline is intent on keeping a united German empire then you could allow for some territory demands during the Austro-Prussian war. Allowing for OTL events during the Franco-Prussian War leaves Germany with two angry neighbors bent on revenge rather than one.

With such a state of affairs Russian becomes the key. Natural reactions would result in a continued Russo-Germanic partnership so something would have to either lure or push away the Czar into the Franco-Austrian camp. Such an encirclement or scenario might persuade the British into making a move toward Germany.

Bismarck made and realized most of those scenarios and made allowances for avoiding most of those, so perhaps a POD might start with some kind of military accidental death during the Austrian war leading to the territory demands OVB resisted OTL being demanded. France/NAP3 might still stumble their way into a war with Prussia or at the very least might counter the Prussian victory with overtures to lure away the Southern German states who sided with Austria. Prussia would find itself countered by France's new club on its South and West. This likely would curb Austrian ventures into the Balkans and perhaps over time removing much of the Russian rivalry with the Hapsburgs and opening the door for overtures by France (and Austria). The ring around Prussia (or Germany I suppose) might set off alarm bells in London.
 
Since Britain had always looked upon France as its traditional enemy and rival, I think the English could have accepted gradual Imperial German dominance of western Europe as long as this was not accompanied by the building of a major blue water navy and demands for equality in colonialism. Tied to this, of course, would be the close links between the German and British ruling houses.
 
Since Britain had always looked upon France as its traditional enemy and rival, I think the English could have accepted gradual Imperial German dominance of western Europe as long as this was not accompanied by the building of a major blue water navy and demands for equality in colonialism. Tied to this, of course, would be the close links between the German and British ruling houses.

Well with Britain you would have to pay a bit closer attention to the public opinions as well, and that cozy relationship between the Hohenzollern's and house Saxe-Coburg and Gotha thawed considerably just prior to and especially after Victoria died. Much of that was due to the naval tensions but Wilhelm II and Edward were not really that close. Thus IMHO several large factors probably must blend to make the scenario plausible. First, you need find a period when the anti-French feelings run highest with the public. This needs to likely coincide with a period when Victoria is not annoyed with her grandson. In addition the foreign ministers shouldn't be those who lean more Germanophobe. Probably best shot is late 1880's.
 
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Also if while fully in a Franco-Russo alliance the Bear had fully attempted to (or did) take Constantinople ... and the French stuck with them ... that would have quickly pushed things in that direction as I have my doubts Britain would have gone into a second Crimean war without French support or at least securing German backing to stare down Paris. OTL Germany rebuffed agreements offers from London as in period they wanted a full public alliance which the Brits were not willing to accept during those periods. Just another 2 cents thrown out.
 
As I recall, the two big sticking points in negotiations over an Anglo-German alliance were:

  • Britain insisted on naval construction limits as a condition of any alliance, which Germany refused to consider. Britain felt it needed a dominant fleet in order to ensure security against invasion or blockade, while Germany felt it needed a first-class navy in order to qualify as a first-class world power, and the conflict between these two perceived needs created a strategic rivalry that undermined alliance negotiations.
  • The two countries had fundamentally different ideas of what an alliance treaty should look like. The British wanted a treaty that looked more-or-less like the OTL Anglo-French Entente: a resolution of points of conflict between the two countries, combined with open-ended promises of friendship and cooperation. The Germans wanted a clear and specific contract of each country's obligations to the other, along the lines of the Dual Alliance or the Reinsurance treaty. Germany rejected Britain's offers as nebulous to the point of meaninglessness (especially considering the naval construction limits Britain was demanding of Germany), while Britain considered Germany's offers as insulting (spelling out specific obligations was seen as implying that Britain couldn't be trusted to honor a general treaty of friendship and cooperation) and overly-constricting (the terms Germany proposed might force Britain to choose between dishonoring their alliance or joining an unjust war).
 
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