Anglo-France vs. Soviet war 1942

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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It was often taken down by cannon hits and Erich Hartmann made a career out of it in the East IOTL. The French had the Bre 693 and the upgraded 700. Fighter bombers are going to be the main weapon though for ground attack and their speed makes them pretty secure against anything but lucky hits.

And how will the W-allies obtain the sturmoviks that they need?
 

Deleted member 1487

And how will the W-allies obtain the sturmoviks that they need?
No one said they would, they had the faster fighter-bombers that worked well in the hostile air environments they encountered IOTL
 
No one said they would, they had the faster fighter-bombers that worked well in the hostile air environments they encountered IOTL

Eh, well at least this french aircraft looks like it could be called a flying coffin without any hesitation...
 

Deleted member 1487

Eh, kinda. Unlike the Germans, the Soviets will never be actually short on fuel since their aircraft can run on the lower-grade stuff. Their combat performance will take a hit for it but whether that will adversely affect their performance enough to be noticed on the grand scale is yet to be determined. The Soviets will be able to establish their own domestic production of high-octane gas based on what they capture out of Silesia (or alternatively, acquire from Germany from their trade ITTL 1940-41) so they will never actually outright run out of the high-grade stuff.
Aircraft could run on low grade fuels, but they would take a performance hit as a result. I don't think there was any significant production of avgas in Silesia, that was mostly in the West, specifically areas the Allies captured. Also whatever the Germans had in 1941 IOTL and ITTL would be marginally better than Soviet domestic fuel (IIRC the Soviets managed to make 90 octane fuel at one point on their own, while the Germans were using 97 octane in 1941), while the Allies would field 100 octane in 1940 and get to 150 by 1943-44. Germany would never sell its very limited supplies of C3 fuel, because they barely had any of it in 1940-41 IOTL and needed every drop to stay competitive. Also I don't think they advertized or would at any rate that they had it.

Basically the Soviets will have a major deficit here for that.
 
Which without enough steel they could ill afford as they were not able to pay without interrupting their own war production.

Well, for the Germans if the choice is cut into their own war production to be able to pay the Soviets or have their war production completely collapse then the choice is kind of obvious.

BTW what was Soviet iron ore output pre-war? Could they seriously afford to sell some?

The output in 1940 was nearly 30,000,000 tons according to this, although I'm unsure about the veracity of the source. I am having a hard time pinning down any consumption numbers but should note that IOTL the Soviets did ship the Germans some 500,000 tons.

I don't think there was any significant production of avgas in Silesia, that was mostly in the West, specifically areas the Allies captured.

Eh? The Silesian region was a major center of the German petrochemical industry as demonstrated by the fact that most of the synthetic fuel plants were around there. There had to have been quite some significant refining capacity there.

Germany would never sell its very limited supplies of C3 fuel, because they barely had any of it in 1940-41 IOTL and needed every drop to stay competitive.

It would be less the Germans selling fuel and more selling technology: blueprints and technical know-how that would allow the Soviets to build their own refining facilities.
 

Deleted member 1487

Well, for the Germans if the choice is cut into their own war production to be able to pay the Soviets or have their war production completely collapse then the choice is kind of obvious.
And pretty much triggers a death spiral and Hitler's assassination. In that case it might actually be pretty hard to get the Nazis to rally to try a counter coup.


Eh? The Silesian region was a major center of the German petrochemical industry as demonstrated by the fact that most of the synthetic fuel plants were around there. There had to have been quite some significant refining capacity there.
Do you have a source on that? From what I've seen the majority was in the Rheinland and Central Germany, such as Leuna:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Campaign_chronology_of_World_War_II


It would be less the Germans selling fuel and more selling technology: blueprints and technical know-how that would allow the Soviets to build their own refining facilities.
I'm not sure if the Germans were that advanced in terms of refining natural oil and were more into the synthetic developments; they could probably pass on the technology for making the chemical additives, but those would take years to make; Germany started in 1940 and were only supposed to get done in 1944 and had to rely on the byproducts of their large chemical industry to limp on, straining it to the max.
http://www.angelfire.com/super/ussbs/ussbsappa.html#lead
http://www.angelfire.com/super/ussbs/ussbsappa.html#ethylene
 
And pretty much triggers a death spiral and Hitler's assassination. In that case it might actually be pretty hard to get the Nazis to rally to try a counter coup.

There is going to be a death spiral either way, the only difference is the "buy it from the Soviets" option means it's a slower death spiral.

Do you have a source on that? From what I've seen the majority was in the Rheinland and Central Germany, such as Leuna:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leuna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_Campaign_chronology_of_World_War_II
Double checking my sources it does seem you are correct: the petrochemical facilities in Silesia were mainly synthetic fuel facilities like the Blechhammer installations and not proper refining plants. With that said, it does seem that based on your positing on how far the Soviets will get they will still capture a number of German refining facilities further west like the installation at Leipzig. We can expect the Soviets to prioritize their dismantling and evacuation eastward.

I'm not sure if the Germans were that advanced in terms of refining natural oil and were more into the synthetic developments; they could probably pass on the technology for making the chemical additives, but those would take years to make; Germany started in 1940 and were only supposed to get done in 1944 and had to rely on the byproducts of their large chemical industry to limp on, straining it to the max.
*shrug* If it's something that can improve the Soviet petrochemical industry, it's something the Soviets will want.
 

Deleted member 1487

The La-5 and YaK-9 certainly have comparable specifications. Also, minor nitpick but the P-51B didn't see service until 1943.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavochkin_La-5
Looking into the La-5 it wasn't really all that good in 1942 and by even 1943 when the 5FN shows up the Spitfire would be superior and might even have issues with the P-47 and a developed D.520, especially RR Merlin or Allison engined. I'm discussing Soviet aircraft on another forum in this scenario and apparently they had a LOT of problems with supercharges and turbocharges, so would be at a major disadvantage above about 15k feet until after 1945. The Su-1 and 3, which I was talking about as a high altitude counter were actually not able to be developed due to their failures in turbochargers and their lag in superchargers.

Wikipedia numbers on service ceiling doesn't tell the full story for Soviet engines, which actually dramatically fell off in power and even 1944 had serious trouble at even 20k feet, reaching less than 900hp at that height, when British Merlin engines were getting over 1300hp. So if RAF and ALA bombers operate like the He177 did in 1944 at 20k feet they could operate with near impunity even as late as 1944 without escort, but with escort there is no threat at all. Mosquitos operating in 1942 and on would be effectively untouchable. The VVS can only compete at lower altitudes.

The Mig-3 would be able to at least contest things at altitude, but if they opted to keep the Mig-3 in production it would badly eat into Il-2 production, because they competed for the same production lines (AM-35 production was discontinued for AM-38 production.

Also the AM-35 engine in the Mig-3 only had enough fuel and power for max 20 minutes at 16000 feet:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25D0%2590%25D0%259C-35&prev=search

Plus there were serious issues with the engine in production and service, which was one reason it was ultimately cancelled. They would theoretically fix the issues and make the Mig-3 competitive, while building new lines for AM-35/38 production, but in 1941-42 ITTL there will be shortages that might take until 1943-44 to sort out. However in the meantime the P-51B and better Spitfires will be outnumbering and outperforming the Mig-3 in 1942-44.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/franco-british-vs-ussr-1942-a-43287.html
 
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