Anglo-Dutch Wars: Dutch do better
- Thread starter nyudnik
- Start date
is there any way the Dutch could've won to such an extent that Dutch instead of English would be today's LINGUA FRANCA, and somehow the Dutch Empire would be the biggest European empire in the world ?
This is hard to do looking at geography, the Netherlands are sort of cradled behind England so we have a good point to get at their shipping.
I don't know much of the Stewarts so can't comment on the actual history, I don't think Dutch could become what English is today as the Dutch have continental commitments and couldn't concentrate solely on the empire however you could have English not widepsread and Dutch more widespread with a crushing Dutch victory in one of the early wars.
I don't know much of the Stewarts so can't comment on the actual history, I don't think Dutch could become what English is today as the Dutch have continental commitments and couldn't concentrate solely on the empire however you could have English not widepsread and Dutch more widespread with a crushing Dutch victory in one of the early wars.
First of all, the golden age of the Dutch was ended because of the dutch being attacked in 1672 by France, England (this was the third anglo-dutch war) Munster and Keulen (in Dutch, don't know the english name exactly.) the Netherlands was protected by the Holy Roman Empire, Brandenburg, Spain and the Dutch themselves (like duh)
The war was ended about 6 years later, however this ment the end of the dutch golden age, after which the dutch economy went down and the Republic was going down completly, although it would take untill 1795 that the republic was done for.
Now an early victory would mean that 1672 (that all-out war) wouldn't have happened, probably at a certain point the Golden Age would've stopped, however it would probably have lasted for anohter couple of decades. An all out victory for the dutch.
Well the Dutch would have had more difficulty with being a big empire, they need to protect their borders in continental Europe (although there's a chance a longer Golden Age and a victory over the english gives them more confidence.)
Also the dutch holdings in North America (including New York/New Amsterdam) would've remained in dutch hands, what would've happened with that?
The war was ended about 6 years later, however this ment the end of the dutch golden age, after which the dutch economy went down and the Republic was going down completly, although it would take untill 1795 that the republic was done for.
Now an early victory would mean that 1672 (that all-out war) wouldn't have happened, probably at a certain point the Golden Age would've stopped, however it would probably have lasted for anohter couple of decades. An all out victory for the dutch.
Well the Dutch would have had more difficulty with being a big empire, they need to protect their borders in continental Europe (although there's a chance a longer Golden Age and a victory over the english gives them more confidence.)
Also the dutch holdings in North America (including New York/New Amsterdam) would've remained in dutch hands, what would've happened with that?
Redbeard
Banned
I've always been fascinated by an AH where the Dutch, the Scandinavians and North Germans are more tightly connected. In OTL the Dutch were active players in that area and it was until 19th century coherrent economically and culturally.
The Dutch did support the loosing side (Christian II) in the Danish civil war in the 1530's, but if Christian II stays in power with Dutch help (and control?) it can not only mean the continuation of the Kalmar Union, but also give the Dutch a good foothold in N. Germany as the Hansa start to loose its breath. One extreme of this PoD could be an Empire including N. Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia and all Baltic coast - I'd call it the "Platdeutschland über alles" (Lowland Germany over all) scenario. A more moderate scenario could be Netherlands with a bigger hinterland/more active allies in N. Germany and Denmark-Norway. (this alliance to a degree was in place, but the Dutch in general gave more than they got back).
Anyway, with a NWE block held better together the Dutch will be much stronger when it comes to the struggles with the English in 17th century. A very simple PoD could be a sligthly milder winter when the Swedes crossed the frozen over Danish straits in the 1650's (don't recall the exact year). In OTL the Dutch to a large degree saved Copenhagen from being taken by the Swedish storm (1656 IIRC), but in a scenario where Denmark-Norway has its back free for some time they could be an important ally to the Dutch. The Danish-Norwegian navy then belonged to the strongest in the world and the English will have a very hard time. An earlier PoD could be Chrsitian IV's campaign in Sweden in 1613 (the Kalmar War) having a more conclusive result in favour for Christian (a tactical victory, but he ran out of money and international support and withdrew).
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
The Dutch did support the loosing side (Christian II) in the Danish civil war in the 1530's, but if Christian II stays in power with Dutch help (and control?) it can not only mean the continuation of the Kalmar Union, but also give the Dutch a good foothold in N. Germany as the Hansa start to loose its breath. One extreme of this PoD could be an Empire including N. Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia and all Baltic coast - I'd call it the "Platdeutschland über alles" (Lowland Germany over all) scenario. A more moderate scenario could be Netherlands with a bigger hinterland/more active allies in N. Germany and Denmark-Norway. (this alliance to a degree was in place, but the Dutch in general gave more than they got back).
Anyway, with a NWE block held better together the Dutch will be much stronger when it comes to the struggles with the English in 17th century. A very simple PoD could be a sligthly milder winter when the Swedes crossed the frozen over Danish straits in the 1650's (don't recall the exact year). In OTL the Dutch to a large degree saved Copenhagen from being taken by the Swedish storm (1656 IIRC), but in a scenario where Denmark-Norway has its back free for some time they could be an important ally to the Dutch. The Danish-Norwegian navy then belonged to the strongest in the world and the English will have a very hard time. An earlier PoD could be Chrsitian IV's campaign in Sweden in 1613 (the Kalmar War) having a more conclusive result in favour for Christian (a tactical victory, but he ran out of money and international support and withdrew).
Regards
Steffen Redbeard
nyudnik said:
The 4th war was in 1780-84.
English is today's Lingua Franca because English Puritans sent 20.000-odd co;onists to New england during the reign of Charles I, by which they outnumbered all other Europeans on the North American continent put together, a headstart they never lost, and which a different outcome to the Anglo-Dutch wars isn't going to affect
Sry...all my info was from a book which said that the golden age ended around that year (the disasteryear) didn't knew all the details....I do think that the war had some damage on the economy (wars, against popular thought aren't themselves good for your economy, especially not if you really don't win anything (new trade goods and such.))
Thanks for the details, however when we're speaking about a early victory (a victory in the first english war) then those navigation laws would probably cease to exist (more dutch influence...)
I got to agree that dutch won't become the world language, much too hard to learn
I think that the dutch indeed wil not be able to make up those 20 000 colonists....I could imagine that untill 1800 a bunch of different languages is spoken in North America (especially if the US doesn't becomes dominant becuase of multiple colonial powers on the east coast.)
Thanks for the details, however when we're speaking about a early victory (a victory in the first english war) then those navigation laws would probably cease to exist (more dutch influence...)
I got to agree that dutch won't become the world language, much too hard to learn
I think that the dutch indeed wil not be able to make up those 20 000 colonists....I could imagine that untill 1800 a bunch of different languages is spoken in North America (especially if the US doesn't becomes dominant becuase of multiple colonial powers on the east coast.)