Anglo-American Rivalry - how to do it?

hey, all. ive decided to make some concerted efforts into my 'Anglo-American Rivalry' idea, but i need some input as to what everyone thinks would be the best way for the US and UK to hate and continue hating each other. the POD has to be sometime after September 4 1783, and preferably before 1860
 
I would think the best way would be for a longer, more drawn out War of 1812.

American ships were raiding England, and if they burned down a few monasteries and towns that would do the trick. ;) Also have a better Quebec campaign that resutls is America taking the territory.

As for America, have the British burn Washington more than once, and also more coastal cities such as Boston and New York. If they capture and execute the President as a "traitor" that might heat the fire a LOT. Even better, have them force America into a position similar to that of OTL Canada. Of course, as soon as America rebuilds it promptly declares complete independence and reinstates the old contitution.

Some interesting side effects of this would be the fact that slavery could have begun a decline while the British held America hostage making the ACW less severe or butterflying it away completely.

If you want to keep the rivalry fresh, have the British declare this a "revolution," and voila, the Second American Revolution is fought. America wins of course, this time it is better prepared.

Over the course of history have major or minor wars between the USA and the Empire, possibly even have the Empire openly support the CSA is the ACW happens.

You woudn't even need that, though. The SAR will be enough.
 
Have more border disputes erupt with Canada. Things like the Aroostook War taking place every decade or so should keep things tense.
 
Have more border disputes erupt with Canada. Things like the Aroostook War taking place every decade or so should keep things tense.

Yeah; some sort of limited Aroostook War in the late 1830s-early 1840s should keep things tense. Perhaps British support for the Mexicans in the Mexican-American War, leading to lesser US territorial gains (no Southern California, the Nueces as the border instead of the Rio Grande, etc.)? That would build up a healthy rivalry.

Once something like the Civil War hits, the UK might support the Confederacy. Assuming the US still wins (perhaps the invitation of British help causes a couple of key states to defect back to the Union, on the theory that domination by Americans is better than working with Brits), that would poison relations for the rest of the 19th century at least, and as the US grows in power worldwide it will be spoiling for a fight with Britain.
 
maybe have america non-isolationist? maybe even try to build up its own empire with france as its ally?

tho a franco-american alliance could butterfly alot away, if say the US (who becomes a major colonial player sometime after the civil war) backs the french in the franco-prussian war? could that butterfly away the great war?
 
i am reminded that a few northern states had considered joining the confederacy if the US didnt give them an excuse not to (new york was one of them, but i forget the others); the excuse not to was the firing on fort sumter

if the british support the confederacy in an already brit-hostile US, i could see the states that seceded after sumter not joining them. thoughts?

confederacy aside:

  • i had been thinking from the get-go that a different War of 1812 would be the best way to start it out. any ideas for how long it could be drawn out?
  • raids on England by the Americans doesnt sound too implausible (would they realistically be able to get across a Royal Navy-controlled Atlantic, though?)
  • i personally kinda doubt the British would be able to capture the president at this time (presumably Madison or maybe Monroe, without looking into butterfly effects as to who else may be elected), but burning cities like Boston sounds more like it, especially considering the power of the Royal navy
  • a SARW doesn't sound too bad. in fact, it kinda fits into something i want to include in which a few men who ran for president but didn't succeed become president; perhaps Winfield Scott could be something of a second Washington if he leads the Americans to victory again in this second revolution?
  • i had been wondering about the British supporting the CSA from the get-go. if the British support the CSA, though, could it be possible that the French support the Union? another thing i had been bouncing around is that the US cozies up with Britain's traditional enemies, namely the French and Irish, as a butterfly effect of their rivalry (and also sorta because of surprising similarities between French and American attitudes about themselves and their neighbors, they may find a kind of kindred spirit with each other)
  • i'll have to look into the Aroostook War, but this sounds like a good way to make it so. British support of Mexico seems plausible. assuming the US still wins, what does everyone think about a puppet Mexican Empire still being established by France (or perhaps Britain) with this one being an "ally" of the US if its a French puppet
 
The trouble with this is the Brit's didn't like fighting people with liberal attitudes. They will if they are forces, but there will be trouble at home and the government will want to end the war quickly. (The exception, of course, as so often is the Irish).

If the 1812 war continued for a couple of years it would come to 1814 and the end (for a while) of the Napoleonic War. Britian would now have to decide to commit troops to the American war, or seek peace.

My feeling are that it would depend on the Americans, if they had attacked / burnt English soil it would be all out war (with interesting butterflies for English troops at Waterloo). If however the war was a stalemate then I can see the US and UK negotiating at Vienna.
 
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Rivalry? certainly.
Occasional hostility? ditto.
continued hatred? Well, no it fails that. Why would you want that?
 
I know the original post said post-1783, but how about Britain winning the ARW, most likely by not losing Trenton and Princeton and keeping France out of the war?

Then you could have a later American Revolution, most likely around the time of OTL War of 1812. A more recent ARW could lead to a more recent second war over unresolved disputes (such that the war of 1812 war) which could mean continued dislike leading into the 20th century when both countries become modern industrial world leaders.
 
<shameless plug>check out my TL</shameless plug>
Rivalry? certainly.
Occasional hostility? ditto.
continued hatred? Well, no it fails that. Why would you want that?
why would someone want to write a nazi- or confederate-victory scenario? why an alien invasion in the 19th century TL? why a timeline where a meteor smashes Henry VIII?

i just had the idea and thought it would be an interesting and original TL to make :D
 
Picket could start a war over that island near Vancouver which the politicians would work quickly to sort out, but which would leave a lot of bad feeling

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

WeisSaul

Banned
Have the US accept North Borneo in 1865, and have competition for domination of East Asia between the US and Great Britain blow up into full scale military conflict.
 
hm. what do you all suppose would be the position of the japanese in a north borneo situation? i know that the japanese weren't out of isolation at the time, but i think they could conceivably become involved if they still industrialize at about the turn of the century

speaking of which, what does everyone think would be the fate of other, smaller countries at this time which either the americans or british, or both, involved themselves in IOTL, such as the japanese. d'you think the americans would still force the japanese to open their borders?
 

WeisSaul

Banned
hm. what do you all suppose would be the position of the japanese in a north borneo situation? i know that the japanese weren't out of isolation at the time, but i think they could conceivably become involved if they still industrialize at about the turn of the century

speaking of which, what does everyone think would be the fate of other, smaller countries at this time which either the americans or british, or both, involved themselves in IOTL, such as the japanese. d'you think the americans would still force the japanese to open their borders?

Well it was the United States that forced Japan to open up, so I could see some resentment against the good ol' USA existing in Japan. It'd probably ally with the UK like OTL as a counter to the USA, and with the Meiji restoration would become increasingly anti-american. It'd probably put a little more effort into establishing a mainland Asian empire and taking all of Sakhalin.

The US may take the Ryukyu kingdom before the Japanese can get to it, and perhaps try to work with the Qing. The Chinese will probably be glad to work with the flower people. Being the junior partner in a Sino-American alliance is the better option when your only alternative is being chopped up by the European powers and Japan like OTL. Especially considering the Chinese already were having trouble with the British in regards to opium.
 
a falling out over how to divide the OR region.

The Brits providing more and newer weapons for Mexico right before/during the Mexican War (they did provide them with worn out Brown Bess muskets earlier; both sides used them in the Texas rebellion).

And the big one, more British support of (although short of open recognition/military alliance with) the CSA.
 
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