Anglo-American Rivalry - development thread

[oshron]

hey, all. some of you may be familiar with my Anglo-American Rivalry TL idea, in which the US and UK stay on bad terms with one another for pretty much the rest of history from 1783 onwards.

for a little while now, ive been working on a chronological list of events which will be taking place in the TL, but have been getting a little discouraged with it. to try to alleviate this, i thought i'd start up a proper development/discussion thread in order to bounce around ideas and get definitive events listed down, with your help


here's a list of events so far, up to the first notable POD:

• 1783
  • Feb. 3-4: Britain acknowledges the independence of the United States, and hostilities between the two countries cease
  • July 24: the Treaty of Gerogievsk is signed, establishing the Kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti (Georgia) as a protectorate of the Russian Empire
  • Sept. 3: the Treaty of Paris is signed, formalizing British recognition of the US and the end of the ARW; this is the earliest actual POD, but changes to the timeline aren't immediately apparent, and any minor (read: negligible) changes to the timeline can be attributed to butterflies that come out from here (for example, the capital of a given state being shifted to a different city, or not being shifted)
• 1784
  • Aug. 16: Britain establishes the colony of New Brunswick (tbph, i probably forgot to note other canadian provincial/colonial establishments, but those still occur)
  • Sept. 22: Russia establishes a colony at Kodiak, Alaska
• 1788
  • January 26: the penal colony of New South Wales is founded
• 1789
  • Feb. 4: George Washington is unanimously elected as the first US President
  • April 30: Washington's inauguration; due to butterflies, April 30 is the traditional inauguration date of all US presidents
  • July 14: the French Revolution begins with the storming of the Bastille
• 1792
  • April 20: the War of the First Coalition begins (like with the establishment of canadian colonies, i probably forgot to note one or two of the coalition wars)
  • Sept. 21: the French Convention abolishes the monarchy and establishes the First French Republic
  • October 13: Washington DC is founded
• 1793
  • Jan. 2: Poland-Lithuania is partitioned between Russia and Prussia
  • Jan. 21: Louis XVI is executed by guillotine
  • April 22: Washington agrees to accept an ambassador from Revolutionary France, which causes Britain to break off diplomatic relations (this is the first notable POD; on this date IOTL, the Proclamation of Neutrality was announced instead, in which the US decided to make it clear that they'd stay neutral during the French Revolution. here, though, the US decides to open diplomacy with its old friend, France; this isnt enough for Britain to declare war, especially considering their impending conflicts with France, but it just grinds their gears )

now, i have an outline of events already set out and itd probably take alot of convincing to get me to change anything very drastically, but i want to know what everyone think would be the immediate effects of the US accepting a french ambassador, as well as how it could affect their relations with france, britain, and other countries in the future

 

[oshron]

in light of no replies in more than half a day, ive decided to share some more of the TL's events thus far:

• 1795
  • Oct. 27: the Treaty of San Lorenzo (Pinckney's Treaty) formalizing the borders between Spanish America and the US
• 1796
  • Feb. 16: Britain seizes Ceylon from the Dutch
  • Feb. 29: the Jay Treaty resolved issues that remained between Britain and the US following the Peace of Paris
• 1797
  • April 30: John Adams becomes President
  • Oct. 18: the Treaty of Campo Formio ends the War of the First Coalition
• 1798
  • May 23 - Sept. 23: the Society of United Irishmen rebel against Britain in support of France and seek an ally in the United States, but are defeated (this is one where i'd like to get some input on potential butterflies; this is supposed to be the first step towards an irish-american alliance--during and after this, there are secret diplomatic meetings between the americans and irish)
  • July 1: the French Campaign in Egypt and Syria as well as the War of the Second Coalition begin
  • July 24: Napoleon captures and occupies Cairo
• 1800
  • Jan. 1: the Dutch East India Company dissolves
  • Nov. 1: John Adams becomes the first President to live in the Executive Mansion (due to butterflies, the presidential residence doesn't come to be called the White House)
• 1801
  • Jan. 3: Toussaint L'Overture takes Santo Domingo as a colony of Napoleonic France
  • Febr. 16: the War of the Second Coalition ends with the Treaty of Luneville
  • April 30: Thomas Jefferson becomes president
  • May 10: the First Barbary War begins
  • June 27: Cairo falls to British soldiers
  • Aug. 17 - Sept. 2: the Siege of Alexandria takes place, the marking the end of Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign
• 1802
  • March 25: the Treaty of Amiens formally ends the War of the Second Coalition
  • June 8: Toussaint L'Ouverture is arrested and imprisoned by French troops
• 1803
  • Jan. 30: James Monroe and Robert R. Livingston negotiate the Louisiana Purchase in Paris
  • April 30: the Louisiana Purchase is made, coincidentally on the same day as Jefferson's inauguration to a second term
  • May 18: the War of the Third Coalition begins
• 1804
  • Jan. 1: Haiti becomes independent
  • Febr. 14: the First Serbian Uprising triggers the Serbian Revolution
  • May 14: Lewis and Clark depart on their expedition
  • July 11: Aaron Burr is fatally shot by Alexander Hamilton during a duel (this is something that i'd like more input on, kind of what hamilton would do afterwards and what the repercussions of burr's death could be)
• 1805
  • June 4: the First Barbary War ends
  • June 11: a fire burns Detroit to the ground, which is blamed on the British Canadian or British-aligned natives
  • Sept. 25: the Ulm Campaign marks the beginning of hostilities in the War of the Third Coalition
  • Nov. 7: Lewis and Clark reach the Pacific
  • December 26: the Treaty of Pressburg ends the War of the Third Coalition and dissolves the Holy Roman Empire
• 1806
  • Jan. 8: Cape Colony becomes a British possession
  • June 25-27: British forces invade and occupy Buenos Aires but are quickly driven out
  • Sept. 23: Lewis and Clark return to St. Louis
• 1807
  • March 25: the Slave Trade Act abolishes the slave trade (but not slavery) throughout the British Empire
  • June 22: the Chesapeake-Leopard Affair takes place
  • July 5: the British try and fail to invade Rio de la Plata for a second time
• 1808
  • Jan. 1: the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves is passed in the US (though slavery itself persists)
  • March 8: the Portuguese royal family arrives in Brazil after fleeing Europe in the wake of an invasion by Napoleon
  • May 2-3: the Peninsular War begins
  • October 27: Arthur Wellesley lands at Lisbon and recaptures the city from the French
• 1809
  • April: Wellesley returns to Portugal to oust Napoleon once and for all
  • April 30: Alexander Hamilton is inaugurated as President (this is a slightly more important POD, and i'd like to know what everyone thinks would result from this)
  • July 16: La Paz (in Bolivia) declares independence and forms the Junta Tuitiva, the first independent government in Spanish America
  • Aug. 10: Ecuador declares independence, but is not recognized
• 1810
  • March 20: Venezuela achieves autonomy
  • May 18-25: the May Revolution takes places
  • July 20: Colombia declares independence
  • Sept. 16: the Mexican War of Independence begins
  • Sept. 18: Chile takes its first steps towards independence
  • Sept. 23 - Oct. 27: West Florida declares independence and is annexed by the US
• 1811
  • March 1: the Citadel Massacre in Cairo takes place
  • May 14: Paraguay declares independence
  • July 5: Venezuela becomes the first South American country whose independence is recognized by Spain
  • Nov. 7: the Battle of Tippecanoe takes place
• 1812
  • April 30: a Democratic-Republican president is sworn in (i actually havent decided who)
  • June 18: the Anglo-American War of 1812 begins
  • June 24: Napoleon crosses the Niemen River to invade Russia
  • July 12: the US invades Canada at Windsor
  • Aug. 19: the USS Constitution engages the HMS Guerriere, earning the nickname "Old Ironsides" in the process
  • Sept. 14: Napoleon enters Moscow
  • October 19: Napoleon begins his retreat from Moscow
• 1813
  • April 27: the Battle of York takes place; York (Toronto) is raided and destroyed by American troops, but they fail to hold the city
  • April 30: James Madison is sworn in as President (this is subject to change; i basically need to figure out who would be the most plausible presidents would be after a one-term hamilton administration)
  • July 5: three weeks of raids on Fort Schlosser, Black Rock, and Plattsburgh by the British begin
  • Oct. 5: the Battle of the Thames takes place; British forces are defeated by William Henry Harrison and Tecumseh is killed
  • Oct. 24 - Nov. 5: the Treaty of Gulistan cedes all Persian territory north of the Aras River to Russia
  • Dec. 18-19: British soldiers and their native allies capture Fort Niagare and attack Lewiston, New York
  • December 29: British soldiers burn Buffalo, New York, to the ground
• 1814
  • Febr. 11: Norway proclaims independence
  • March 30-31: Sixth Coalition forces occupy Paris
  • April 6: Napoleon abdicates as Emperor of the French
  • Aug. 24: British troops burn Washington DC to the ground and takes Madison prisoner
  • Sept. 13: British forces bombard Fort McHenry, but fail to take the fort
  • Dec. 7-24: American ships raid the English coast and even land troops, who burn a dozen English monasteries to the ground
  • Nov. 23: acting-President Elbridge Gerry has a heart attack and dies, so Secretary of State James Monroe becomes acting-President
  • date uknown: due to the butterfly effect, all of Guiana (except for French Guiana) remains in Dutch hands, so British influence in the region is diminished a bit
• 1815
  • Jan. 8: the Battle of New Orleans takes place, ending with an American victory
  • Febr. 26: Napoleon returns from exile
  • March 2-18: Sri Vikrama Rajasinha is deposed and Ceylon becomes a British colony
  • March 20: the Hundred Days begin
  • June 18: the Battle of Waterloo takes place; American mercenaries are discovered among Napoleon's defeated troops
  • Oct. 15: Napoleon arrives in the US after the ship taking him to St. Helena is captured by American sailors (this part is honestly irrelevant, and will probably be dropped from the final version of the TL; alternatively, he could be taken to Chile)
• 1816
  • Jan. 17: American naval bombardments destroy St. John's, Newfoundland (IOTL, it was an unrelated fire that destroyed St. John's)
  • June 19: the Battle of Seven Oaks takes place between American troops and the British-aligned Metis people; the Metis win, which opens the door for a land invasion by the British into the Northwest Territory (this is part of the War of 1812; IOTL, the Hudson Bay Company fought them)
  • July 9: Argentina declares independence
  • Sept. 2: the Second Battle of Boston Harbor takes place, and much of Boston and neighboring towns is razed by the Royal Navy
  • Nov. 2: the 1816 US Presidential Election is postponed due to the war and Madison's continued incarceration by British forces (this is something i'd like a plausibility check on)
• 1817
  • Febr. 12: the Argentine/Chilean patriotic army defeats the Spanish
  • Nov. 6: the Principality of Serbia is recognized as a semi-independent state by the Ottomans
  • November 20: the First Seminole War begins in Spanish Florida
• 1818
  • Febr. 12: Chile proclaims independence from Spain
  • March 15: Andrew Jackson invades Florida to the end of fighting the Seminoles
• 1819
  • Febr. 22: the Adams-Onis Treaty cedes Spanish Florida to the US, straining relations between Spain and the UK
  • March 3 - July 17: the Second Battle of New York takes place; Winfield Scott leads American troops to victory, but most of New York City is destroyed during the battle
  • June 7: the Second Burning of Washington takes place
  • December 6: the Battle of Quebec takes place, the last major armed conflict in the War of 1812
• 1820
  • Jan. 28-30: Fabian Gottlieb von Bellingshausen and Edward Bransfield each discover Antarctica within a few days of each other
  • March 3-6: the Missouri Compromise is passed, prohibiting slavery in the North
  • Oct. 20: the Treaty of Copenhagen is signed, officially ending the War of 1812; Madison is released from custody (the treaty here is pretty much the same as ghent, just located elsewhere due to butterflies)
  • Nov. 17: Nathaniel Palmer discovers Antarctica; the competing Russian, British, and American claims of discovery lead to three different scientifically recognized names: Novaya Moskya (New Moscow) by Russia, its allies, and countries in its sphere of influence; Bransfieldsland by the British and their allies; and New Stonington by the Americans and their allies outside the Russian sphere (this is entirely due to butterflies; i plan for the US and Russia to eventually become allies against Britain)
  • date unknown: Santo Domingo retains its original name instead of being renamed "Dominican Republic", but the country is otherwise exactly the same (barring butterflies from outside changes)

any help on this?

 

[Atomicwalrus]

nice TL idea I'll be following.

I think though such a long war of 1812 would result in the USA bankrupting itself and with the nepolionic wars over in Europe Britain deploying an overwhelming numbers of veteran troops to America making those US victories in 1819 impossible.

One thing though I don't think you mentioned was what where the repercussions of Napoleon being in the USA I think that could be pretty interesting.

 

[oshron]

thats part of why im considering removing it or transferring that over to chile, which i plan to make a regional/great power ITTL. on the one hand, napoleon could potentially bring some victories to the US in the anglo-american war if he's brought there and decides to help them to get back at the british, but on the other hand he has a HUGE ego which could have all sorts of negative repercussions for the US (which is honestly something i want to avoid with this change from OTL). i was hoping i could open discussion for some of these so that i can actually get this TL really going

 

[Atomicwalrus]

A Nepoleonic empire based out of Chile does sound pretty interesting.

and Napoleon in the US may give some victories but the war of 1812 going for that many years longer then it did OTL is going to be a worse case scenario for the USA and they are going to lose hard. By 1816 ITTL with the war still going and it lasting to 1819 Britain would now be able to focus much more of its attention on North America resulting in the type of victory where the USA is forced to give up the Louisiana purchase and an independent New England.

This is the type of scenario where the USA is strangled in its crib.

maybe have the war end in late 1816 with Britain bringing much more of its forces to North America resulting in a defeat to the USA and the borders between British north america and the USA redrawn in favour of the UK and an independent native american state, creating a situation where a second war between the two is likely

 

[oshron]

well would the UK be willing to keep fighting that long, do you think? iirc, a contributing factor to the british losing in the ARW was that there was that the war was becoming less and less popular back home. ill probably amend it so that the war ends a year or two earlier, but plan to keep the second battles of boston harbor and new york

 

[Atomicwalrus]

It probably wouldn't be incredibly popular but you've already established much sourer relations between the two so it wont be as unpopular as it would OTL and with the second battle of boston and the poor condition of the US's economy in this type of scenario I don't think a return to status quo ante bellum is possible.

If you want a way to increase this Anglo-American rivalry I would force the USA to cede territory to the UK as reparations and/or include monetary reparations instead of the war dragging on with the UK now able to bring in a lot of veteran troops from Europe potentially causing a much worse peace for the USA.

 

[oshron]

interesting. what regions do you think the US would cede in such a situation?

 

[Atomicwalrus]

Honestly I'm not sure but I can't see it being a much of the heavily settled areas. Maybe a decent chunk of the Louisiana purchase which around this time was pretty much unsettled and could probably be justifiably given up due to around this time it wasn't of as much value as it will be in the future.

I'm not an expert on the time period though, there are a lot of threads about the war of 1812 floating around if you want to have a search.

 

[oshron]

ive updated the course of events; here's stuff that's different from the last batch of events (bolded):

• 1814
  • Febr. 11: Norway proclaims independence
  • March 30-31: Sixth Coalition forces occupy Paris
  • April 6: Napoleon abdicates as Emperor of the French
  • Aug. 24: British troops seize Washington DC; they burn much of the city, seize the Executive Mansion, and take President Madison prisoner
  • Sept. 13: British forces bombard Fort McHenry, but fail to take the fort
  • Nov. 23: acting-President Elbridge Gerry has a heart attack and dies, so Secretary of State James Monroe becomes acting-President
  • Dec. 7-24: American ships raid the English coast and even land troops, who burn a dozen English monasteries to the ground
  • date uknown: due to the butterfly effect, all of Guiana (except for French Guiana) remains in Dutch hands, so British influence in the region is diminished a bit
• 1815
  • Jan. 8: the Battle of New Orleans takes place, ending with an American victory; this is a major turning point in the war
  • Febr. 26: Napoleon returns from exile
  • March 2-18: Sri Vikrama Rajasinha is deposed and Ceylon becomes a British colony
  • March 20: the Hundred Days begin
  • June 18: the Battle of Waterloo takes place; American mercenaries are discovered among Napoleon's defeated troops
  • Oct. 15: Napoleon arrives in Chile after the ship taking him to St. Helena is captured by American sailors on an unknown date; the Americans leave Napoleon in South America after receiving further orders from acting-President Monroe
• 1817
  • Febr. 12: Napoleon leads the Argentine/Chilean patriotic army to victory over the Spanish
  • March 3 - July 17: the Second Battle of New York takes place
    
  • Nov. 6: the Principality of Serbia is recognized as a semi-independent state by the Ottomans
  • November 20: the First Seminole War begins in Spanish Florida
• 1818
  • Febr. 12: Chile proclaims independence from Spain
  • March 15: Andrew Jackson invades Florida to the end of fighting the Seminoles
  • June 7: the Recapture of Washington takes place; American troops retake Washington DC, freeing President Madison from British custody
    
• 1819
  • Febr. 22: the Adams-Onis Treaty cedes Spanish Florida to the US, straining relations between Spain and the UK
  • June 7: the Second Burning of Washington takes place
  • Oct. 20: the Battle of Quebec takes place, the last major armed conflict in the War of 1812
  • Dec. 6: the Treaty of Copenhagen is signed, ending the War of 1812 (TTL's version of ghent)
• 1820
  
  • Jan. 28-30: Fabian Gottlieb von Bellingshausen and Edward Bransfield each discover Antarctica within a few days of each other
  • March 3-6: the Missouri Compromise is passed, prohibiting slavery in the North
  • Nov. 17: Nathaniel Palmer discovers Antarctica; the competing Russian, British, and American claims of discovery lead to three different scientifically recognized names: Novaya Moskya (New Moscow) by Russia, its allies, and countries in its sphere of influence; Bransfieldsland by the British and their allies; and New Stonington by the Americans and their allies outside the Russian sphere (this is entirely due to butterflies; i plan for the US and Russia to eventually become allies against Britain)
  • date unknown: Santo Domingo retains its original name instead of being renamed "Dominican Republic", but the country is otherwise exactly the same (barring butterflies from outside changes)

 

[Sean Mulligan]

• • April 22: Washington agrees to accept an ambassador from Revolutionary France, which causes Britain to break off diplomatic relations (this is the first notable POD; on this date IOTL, the Proclamation of Neutrality was announced instead, in which the US decided to make it clear that they'd stay neutral during the French Revolution. here, though, the US decides to open diplomacy with its old friend, France; this isnt enough for Britain to declare war, especially considering their impending conflicts with France, but it just grinds their gears )

Why would the British be offended by the U.S. accepting an ambassador from a legal government? Their is no contradiction between the Proclamation of Neutrality and maintaining relations with France.

 

[oshron]

britain and france had just gone to war, and the US and france have a history of being allies at this point (the british would still be bent up over their helping the colonists in teh ARW)

 

[Falastur]

Umm, one minor nitpick:

Dec. 7-24: American ships raid the English coast and even land troops, who burn a dozen English monasteries to the ground

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries

Also, I'm not entirely sure that the thing about the Americans "stealing" Napoleon works. For one, it's incredibly hard to track down a ship sailing the Atlantic, and another thing to catch it up and overtake it. It's even harder still to do it while based further away than your target is to the destination. The Americans would essentially have to be anchored off port waiting for him to leave, and that would look immensely suspicious. Also, I have a feeling that an entire fleet took Napoleon to St Helena because of just such fears of him being lost by his escort being attacked (mainly by coincidence rather than American plot, I should stress). Finally, you're aware that if the US Navy kidnaps him then the entirety of Europe will hate the US for harbouring him, not just Britain? I mean, the man had been terrorising Europe for nigh on two decades. It would be a bit like Japan launching a quick strike which somehow rescues the entire Nazi High Command in March 1945, and then sets them up with a new territory to govern.

 

[oshron]

churches, then that particular event was suggested by someone else on the board to build up british hate towards americans

 

[oshron]

i think i may have missed the last half of your post last time, falastur. here's a response to that:

Also, I'm not entirely sure that the thing about the Americans "stealing" Napoleon works. For one, it's incredibly hard to track down a ship sailing the Atlantic, and another thing to catch it up and overtake it. It's even harder still to do it while based further away than your target is to the destination. The Americans would essentially have to be anchored off port waiting for him to leave, and that would look immensely suspicious. Also, I have a feeling that an entire fleet took Napoleon to St Helena because of just such fears of him being lost by his escort being attacked (mainly by coincidence rather than American plot, I should stress). Finally, you're aware that if the US Navy kidnaps him then the entirety of Europe will hate the US for harbouring him, not just Britain? I mean, the man had been terrorising Europe for nigh on two decades. It would be a bit like Japan launching a quick strike which somehow rescues the entire Nazi High Command in March 1945, and then sets them up with a new territory to govern.

the idea is that they just happen upon the ship carrying napoleon and decide to attack it because its flying the british flag (remember, ITTL, the US and UK are still at war at this time). i also revised it so that they just drop him off in chile and leave him there to rot. though, again, napoleon having any role after his OTL final defeat is something that i'm willing to just drop entirely

here's some more of the timeline events, too, because i DO still want to keep this going; ive just been busy the past few days with school:

• 1821
  • March 3: the Second Barbary War begins
  • April 30: James Monroe is sworn in as President
  • May 5: Napoleon dies (chances are this event won't even be acknowledged in the final version in the likely event that any post-napoleonic ventures are dropped)
  • July 28: Peru declares independence from Spain
  • September 7: the Republic of Gran Colombia is established
  • September 11: the Greek War of Independence begins
  • September 15: Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Costa Rica all gain independence
  • September 27: Mexico gains independence and becomes the Mexican Empire
  • November 28 - December 1: Panama and Santo Domingo declare independence
• 1822
  • February 9: Haitain forces invade and overthrow Santo Domingo
  • July 13: the Second Barbary War ends
  • September 7: Brazil declares independence from Portugal
• 1823
  • July 1: the United Provinces of Central America is formed
  • December 2: the Monroe Doctrine is introduced
• 1825
  • July 18: Uruguay declares independence from Brazil
  • August 6: the independence of Bolivia is recognized by Spain
  • October 26: the construction of the Erie Canal is completed (this is one that i'm a little conflicted over: in such a hostile area, would either the british or americans--or both--allow the other's oceanic navies access to the great lakes? or would this be a rare occasion of agreement between them ITTL for the sake of trade?)
• 1828
  • August 27: Brazil and Argentina recognize Uruguay; Simon Bolivar becomes the Colombian dictator
• 1829
  • April 30: Andrew Jackson becomes president (this is another one where i'm honestly not sure if jackson's presidency would be butterflied away, primarily because of changes brought on by the earlier hamilton presidency)
  • June 3: the Swan River Colony is founded in west Australia, securing pretty much the whole continent for Britain (due to butterflies, Australia is divided into fewer colonies and with different borders: Swan River is pretty much like OTL West Australia, TTL's NSW is the OTL NSW as well as Victoria and the administrative zones, South Australia is the eastern half of the OTL province, and Queensland comprises everything else on the continent; there's also Van Dieman's Land [OTL Tasmania])
• 1830
  • February 3: Greece attains independence from the Ottomans, and the Greek War of Independence essentially ends
  • May 13: Ecuador breaks off from Gran Colombia
  • May 28: the Indian Removal Act is passed
  • July 5: Algeria is invaded by France
  • November 29: the Polish Insurrection of 1830 begins
• 1831
  • September 6-8: the Polish Insurrection is crushed
  • November 7: the slave trade (but not slavery) is banned in Brazil
• 1832
  • April 6: the Black Hawk War beginsl Americans are outraged when they learn that the Black Hawks are using weapons supplied by the British
  • May 7: the Greek War of Independence formally ends
  • August 1-2: the Bad Axe Massacre takes place
• 1833
  • January 5: Spain cedes the Malvinas to Chile (due to butterflies, Spain asserts and maintains control of the Falklands until this year, when they cede it to Chile, the premier power in the region [Argentina hasn't yet expanded into Patagonia ITTL])
  • August 1: the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 is passed
  • September 21: the US and Oman become allies (this happened IOTL iirc, mainly because Oman was colonizing parts of africa and the US wasn't interested in doing the same thing, as opposed to the european powers; it may have happened later than i'm dating it IOTL, though)

you may have noticed that i'm starting to build up some unconventional allies for the US, as well as numerous changes to the rest of the world. i think i'm using just the right amount of butterflies here

 

[Pesterfield]

the Treaty of Paris is signed, formalizing British recognition of the US and the end of the ARW

Why did this happen?

If you really want U.S./British rivalry wouldn't no treaty be better? Britain loses, but still considers them colonies in rebellion and thinks of the current setback as just a cease fire.

 

[oshron]

i decided that the officially POD is after US independence is achieved, recognized, and formalized. that's really all there is to it, just so that the US still comes into existence

 

[Atomicwalrus]

Some hopefully help full input.

October 26: the construction of the Erie Canal is completed (this is one that i'm a little conflicted over: in such a hostile area, would either the british or americans--or both--allow the other's oceanic navies access to the great lakes? or would this be a rare occasion of agreement between them ITTL for the sake of trade?)

They might agree for the simple reason that because the war of 1812 lasted to 1819 they are dam broke.

June 3: the Swan River Colony is founded in west Australia, securing pretty much the whole continent for Britain (due to butterflies, Australia is divided into fewer colonies and with different borders: Swan River is pretty much like OTL West Australia, TTL's NSW is the OTL NSW as well as Victoria and the administrative zones, South Australia is the eastern half of the OTL province, and Queensland comprises everything else on the continent; there's also Van Dieman's Land [OTL Tasmania])

These larger colonies might make a bit more sense in the colonial error but if federalisation happens and they become states New South Wales will have a huge portion of the population I might be wrong but something like more then 50%. Also Queensland and Western Australia are to big to properly represent and administer their northern parts as it is OTL.

 

[oshron]

that is helpful so i'll specifically note that erie is a mutual decision to try to rebuild their economy, pretty much a neutral zone between them, and australia will get divided into a few more provinces/territories. i'll probably try to come up with a name for northern and southern division from queensland and maybe one or two divisions from NSW