Angevin Empire

Alright, so, let's say that Henry the Young King manages to survive his father and does not contract dysentery in 1183. In this scenario, let's also assume that Geoffrey survives his father and Henry II dies in 1189 as in OTL.

So, in 1189, *Henry III receives England, Normandy and Anjou; Richard receives Aquitaine, Gascony and Poitou; Geoffrey remains in Brittany as duke. What are the immediate and long term* effects of this?

And on a side note, what are relations like between the brothers themselves, and with Philip II Augustus and other neighboring rulers? What would be their individual foreign policy (read: dynastic) goals? Do any of the brothers take the cross for the Third Crusade? Does Philip Augustus? Also, what becomes of John Lackland in this scenario?

Just curious. I apologize if this has been asked before, but I've never seen a thread looking at the effects of a surviving, albeit partitioned, Angevin Empire in the thirteenth century...

*"Long term" meaning over the next few decades.
 
I don't know much about this time in history so I can not fully answer your question. But one thing I can see is Henry III and Richard both taking the Cross to the Holy Land, waging what could very well be a much larger campaign with the extra wealth of the two great English leaders.
 
I think an Angevin Empire and an Angevin Sicily can surround France like the Habsburg Empire did.
 
Last edited:
Apart from going on crusade together, there may still be a fair amount of bad blood between Henry the Younger and Richard. They didn't like each other. And this might well affect the cohesion of the Angevin realms against the King of France.

Having said this, if Richard dies without fathering children as in OTL, his duchy may revert into the keeping of his brother (assuming Henry outlives him).

Difficult to say what happens with Geoffrey. He was the duke-consort of Brittany, being married to Constance, who was a ward of King Henry II. Geoffrey was reportedly on friendly terms with Philip II of France, more so than the rest of his family, although he would die while a guest of King Philip in 1186. The circumstances of his demise being a mystery.

John was made Lord of Ireland, but didn't command any respect there. He already possessed a number of earldoms and countships in both England and France.

The "Angevin Empire" wasn't an empire in the proper sense. It was a series of independent realms that were gained through inheritance, marriage (Duchy of Aquitaine) or in the case of Constance of Brittany, had been in the care of the Plantagenets from childhood.

The Plantagenet House of Anjou is not to be confused with the later Capetian House of Anjou, which later branches would rule in Sicily, Naples, Croatia, Hungary and Poland. The Plantagenet Angevins would lose Anjou, along with Maine, Touraine and Normandy to the forces of Philip II of France by the year 1204. Leaving King John of England with the Duchy of Aquitaine as his only territory on the continent.
 
Lysandros Aikiedes said:
Apart from going on crusade together, there may still be a fair amount of bad blood between Henry the Younger and Richard. They didn't like each other. And this might well affect the cohesion of the Angevin realms against the King of France.
The family of Henry II was a very disfunctionnal one. Henry, his wife Eleanor and their sons had very bad relationships: the sons & the wife considered him as a tyrant, while Henry II considered his sons as greedy beings only waiting for him to die (a half truth). And there were rivalries between the sons: Henry the Young, Richard, Geoffrey and John all wanted a bigger part of the realm of their father, at the expense of their brother.

In a scenario where Henry II dies and his "Empire" breaks up, it is likely there will be tensions if not war between the Angevin brothers. It's probably a win-win scenario for Philip II Augustus: though he might not expand the royal dosmaine like he did OTL, he could use the strife in the Angevin family to play them against each other. Also, Philip had relations of friendship with the Angevins at different point: he could play as an arbitre between their disputes by playing a "friend of all" card if he manage to keep them as per OTL.

Regarding the crusade, I guess the three Angevins could go. Henry the Young because he would be King of England and wouldn't be left out of an event that also concerns the Emperor and the King of France. Richard because he is a Knight to the bitter end and wouldn't dishonnor himself. Geoffrey could also because he wouldn't want to be overshadowed by his brothers.

John, for his part, could still try to get lands, being "Lackland". Not impossible he plots to get part of the inheritance. He might even receive the help of Philip Augustus if things go OTL: Henry the Young had a sterile wife (because of an early miscarriage) and Richard died chidless. Geoffrey would get everything, and John knows the King of France isn't okay with a unified Angevin Empire.

Lysandros Aikiedes said:
Geoffrey was reportedly on friendly terms with Philip II of France, more so than the rest of his family, although he would die while a guest of King Philip in 1186. The circumstances of his demise being a mystery.
What is mysterious? Geoffrey died in a Knight's tournament. It was a common death for Knights at the time, second only to death in battle I believe. At least, that's what I have heard and read.

Philip was also very affected by Geoffrey's death according to chroniclers. Even if Geoffrey was murdered, I doubt Philip had a hand on the matter (though I don't think you're meaning he killed or had Geoffrey killed).

Lysandros Aikiedes said:
John was made Lord of Ireland, but didn't command any respect there. He already possessed a number of earldoms and countships in both England and France.
I read though that he never got hold of those counties until Richard went on crusade OTL. And John was probably the least liked of the Angevins: for one, he was the favorite son of Henry II which probably maked him very hated by his brothers. Plus, he apparently had a bad temper despite good competences. Who says his three brothers are not going to spoil him?
 
The "Angevin Empire" wasn't an empire in the proper sense. It was a series of independent realms that were gained through inheritance, marriage (Duchy of Aquitaine) or in the case of Constance of Brittany, had been in the care of the Plantagenets from childhood.
Yes, of course. Understand that I only use the term "empire" loosely. I have noticed that many posts on this board in the past have treated the lands held by the Angevins as somehow always surviving under the rule of a single lord, if they were to endure under the rule of that family at all. I find this rather cliché and unlikely.

He might even receive the help of Philip Augustus if things go OTL: Henry the Young had a sterile wife (because of an early miscarriage) and Richard died chidless.
I am unsure if they will in this scenario. At the time of his death in OTL, Henry the Younger had sent his wife back to the French court, although accounts vary as to whether this was in disgrace or not. It is probable that he was planning to petition the Pope to have the marriage annulled, or at least that he would have ended up doing so and remarrying had he lived longer (though to who, I am not sure--ideas?). As for Richard, well, perhaps he weds Alys of France in this scenario and proves more successful dynastically.

Some other ideas for this scenario...
--John Lackland accompanies his brothers to the Holy Land to seek his fortune, and through circumstances unforeseen, ends up wedding a widowed or divorced Queen Isabella of Jerusalem? I mean, considering that woman's life in OTL, I don't see this is that difficult to arrange.

--Richard leads an ALT *Albigensian Crusade with the blessing of the Pope in order to seize Toulouse and advance his claims there. Or, perhaps Richard, as Duke of Aquitaine, will even involve himself in the Reconquista?

I don't know, too far fetched perhaps? What does everyone think?
 
Maniakes said:
There's two conflicting contemporary accounts: an English chronicle as you describe and a French chronicle which attributes his death to sudden chest pains.
[Troll]You sure he didn't have chest pain because he took a lance in the chest? :D[/Troll]

Seriously, I had never heard of the sudden chest pain version. To me, it had been admitted he had killed himself in a tournament. Most of the books I read about the period mention that one.

Endymion said:
I am unsure if they will in this scenario. At the time of his death in OTL, Henry the Younger had sent his wife back to the French court, although accounts vary as to whether this was in disgrace or not. It is probable that he was planning to petition the Pope to have the marriage annulled, or at least that he would have ended up doing so and remarrying had he lived longer (though to who, I am not sure--ideas?).
In these conditions, it does seem plausible that Henry the Young could divorce Margaret of France then remarry. It will not change much the fate of the woman anyway: she ended up as Queen of Hungary by becoming the second wife of Bela III OTL. Regarding the alternate bride of Henry the Young, I think you would have to look at his neighbors in hopes of extending his domain. He might wed a female cousin of Philip Augustus, a princess of Flanders or a one of the Blois-Champagne family.

Endymion said:
As for Richard, well, perhaps he weds Alys of France in this scenario and proves more successful dynastically.
Maybe. However, remember that Alys was supposedly a mistress of Henry II. Given how Richard viewed his father, I'm not sure he would want a possible "left-over".
On the other hand, he might conclude the marriage in hopes on having the King of France on his side against his brothers in any dispute. Especially if things go bad between Philip Augustus and Henry the Young because of Margaret of France.

Endymion said:
John Lackland accompanies his brothers to the Holy Land to seek his fortune, and through circumstances unforeseen, ends up wedding a widowed or divorced Queen Isabella of Jerusalem? I mean, considering that woman's life in OTL, I don't see this is that difficult to arrange.
I'm not an expert on John Lackland's life, but that doesn't seem to suit his character. Maybe I'm a bit biased by the fact he is viewed as cowardly, but I can't see John going on crusade. I see him more as someone who would rather stay behind to administrate his domain and, eventually, try to extend his dominions.

Endymion said:
Richard leads an ALT *Albigensian Crusade with the blessing of the Pope in order to seize Toulouse and advance his claims there. Or, perhaps Richard, as Duke of Aquitaine, will even involve himself in the Reconquista?
Richard going on the Albigensian Crusade seems like a good possibility and does suit the character of the man. Plus, as you said, he has personnal interests out there. Leading the crusade, I'm less sure though it seems pretty likely. But I think that would actually drove Philip Augustus to join the crusade himself in fear of seeing Richard getting Toulouse.

Richard involving himself in the Reconquista also seems pretty likely. Plus, if he married Berengaria of Navarra OTL, that probably means he was looking southward of his dominions.
 
Wasn't John made Lord of Ireland with at least one attempt by Henry II to obtain him the crown.
With Young Henry surviving it's possible John gets this so he's no longer Lackland but Ireland...
 
The family of Henry II was a very disfunctionnal one. Henry, his wife Eleanor and their sons had very bad relationships: the sons & the wife considered him as a tyrant, while Henry II considered his sons as greedy beings only waiting for him to die (a half truth). And there were rivalries between the sons: Henry the Young, Richard, Geoffrey and John all wanted a bigger part of the realm of their father, at the expense of their brother.

In a scenario where Henry II dies and his "Empire" breaks up, it is likely there will be tensions if not war between the Angevin brothers. It's probably a win-win scenario for Philip II Augustus: though he might not expand the royal dosmaine like he did OTL, he could use the strife in the Angevin family to play them against each other. Also, Philip had relations of friendship with the Angevins at different point: he could play as an arbitre between their disputes by playing a "friend of all" card if he manage to keep them as per OTL.

Regarding the crusade, I guess the three Angevins could go. Henry the Young because he would be King of England and wouldn't be left out of an event that also concerns the Emperor and the King of France. Richard because he is a Knight to the bitter end and wouldn't dishonnor himself. Geoffrey could also because he wouldn't want to be overshadowed by his brothers.

John, for his part, could still try to get lands, being "Lackland". Not impossible he plots to get part of the inheritance. He might even receive the help of Philip Augustus if things go OTL: Henry the Young had a sterile wife (because of an early miscarriage) and Richard died chidless. Geoffrey would get everything, and John knows the King of France isn't okay with a unified Angevin Empire.

I'm not going to dispute that the Angevin realms would collapse in on themselves under the leadership of the Plantagenet brothers.


What is mysterious? Geoffrey died in a Knight's tournament. It was a common death for Knights at the time, second only to death in battle I believe. At least, that's what I have heard and read.

Contemporary French chronicler Rigord writes that Geoffrey died from chest pains, while Roger of Hoveden and Gerald of Wales claim his death was a tourney accident. I don't know which is true, so I consider it a mystery.



I read though that he never got hold of those counties until Richard went on crusade OTL. And John was probably the least liked of the Angevins: for one, he was the favorite son of Henry II which probably maked him very hated by his brothers. Plus, he apparently had a bad temper despite good competences. Who says his three brothers are not going to spoil him?

I thought John continued to have that as nickname, along with "Softsword" until he was king. Maybe I'm wrong, but while John was awarded these lands and titles in order to gain his loyalty, Richard still retained key castles in those regions. Richard sure didn't trust him, having left persons such as his mother Eleanor of Aquitaine, Hugh de Puiset and the Chancellor William de Longchamp as the regents of England. With William Fitz Ralph as Seneschal of Normandy and Payn de Rochefort seneschal in Anjou.
 
Top