Angevin Empire WI

Atreus

Yes, in theory. However, there are some problems with actually pulling it off. It basically comes down to the Plantagenets can probably hold england or france effectivly, but both is difficult. Sooner or later they get distracted in one place and lose the other, as in OTL.

That said, it is doable. My first thought is that butterflying Phillip Augustus away or having him meet some reverses on the battefield (Bouvines seems the logical place to start) could lead to a weakened power base for the French kingdom which leads to an Angevin survival. However, there are several other problems, such as the fact that the Angevins and their descendents had a nasty habit of fighting wars between various branches of the family (from Henry II and his sons down through the War of the roses). A strong central government would probably be needed to pull this off.

One final though, which conflicts with the OP. Maybe some Angevin king decides that the realm is to large to rule as one entity, and splits it. One son inheirets Western france, one inheirits Britain. If you can keep these two kingdoms from bleeding each other to death, then this meets the goal of the POD, in a way. Not a united angevin empire, but two kingdoms, one of which holds parts of france.
 

Analytical Engine

Atreus said:
Yes, in theory. However, there are some problems with actually pulling it off. It basically comes down to the Plantagenets can probably hold england or france effectivly, but both is difficult. Sooner or later they get distracted in one place and lose the other, as in OTL.

That said, it is doable. My first thought is that butterflying Phillip Augustus away or having him meet some reverses on the battefield (Bouvines seems the logical place to start) could lead to a weakened power base for the French kingdom which leads to an Angevin survival. However, there are several other problems, such as the fact that the Angevins and their descendents had a nasty habit of fighting wars between various branches of the family (from Henry II and his sons down through the War of the roses). A strong central government would probably be needed to pull this off.

One final though, which conflicts with the OP. Maybe some Angevin king decides that the realm is to large to rule as one entity, and splits it. One son inheirets Western france, one inheirits Britain. If you can keep these two kingdoms from bleeding each other to death, then this meets the goal of the POD, in a way. Not a united angevin empire, but two kingdoms, one of which holds parts of france.
Click to expand...

They could also reunite later on.
 

rcduggan

Atreus said:
One final though, which conflicts with the OP. Maybe some Angevin king decides that the realm is to large to rule as one entity, and splits it. One son inheirets Western france, one inheirits Britain. If you can keep these two kingdoms from bleeding each other to death, then this meets the goal of the POD, in a way. Not a united angevin empire, but two kingdoms, one of which holds parts of france.
Click to expand...

That wouldn't be what the OP was asking for though. A Kingdom of England and a Kingdom of France ruled separately would not be one Angevin feudal empire, just two nation-states by themselves.
 

DuQuense

The "Lord Darcy" stories by Randall Garrett are a well-known AH based on this premise. However, as they are set in a world in which magic develops as an applied science, it might be too ASB for the purpose of this discussion.
Click to expand...
If you Ignore the Magic part, The POD is Richard Lion Hearted not Dieing from the Arrow that killed him OTL.
?Would his living longer allow the two parts to withstand the Problems.?
 

Falastur

It depends. He was a very accomplished general, but he wasn't very good as an administrator and he had a fair number of powerful enemies - remember that he was kidnapped and imprisoned on the way back from the Crusades, and that he was killed while combatting vassals who defied his will for greater centralisation in Aquitaine. Also, he was very much an Aquitainian man, having spent virtually his entire life there, and he wasn't so interested in England.

Given Richard living longer, I can see a few things happening - I think eventually he'd have removed the troublesome vassals in Aquitaine, meaning that the area became subservient, but he'd likely build up a fair amount of animosity during it, which would likely be taken out on his successor. With the lack of powerful vassals from his campaigning there, you'll likely see no real powerful magnates who just retain the original state of decentralised affairs, but you'll quite possibly see a united insurrection to remove Richard's successor and enthrone someone else who will have little control over affairs. Whether this is successful or not depends on who succeeds Richard. I think Richard would probably have children if he lives somewhat longer, and there's every chance that he could bring up a son to be another talented military genius, so maybe Aquitaine can be brought under heel. The problem is that Richard is going to largely ignore other areas under his rule while he happily plays about with his Aquitaine project, so you might see discontent leading him to split the empire up again. At any rate you need Richard's successor to be more willing to travel all over his domains, and to be better at administrating. I can also see Richard exerting dominance over other areas of France - Toulouse strikes as the primary target - and this could cause a combination of the King of France and the HRE joining up to take him down once and for all, given the danger of him becoming too powerful to handle. In order for the Angevin Empire to survive, you'd probably need Richard to not manage to push his boundaries out much further, so he doesn't become too big a threat to France and Germany. I have to admit that seeing Richard or his heir suppressing the Albigensian heresy would be interesting though...

You still have the problem in all of this, though, that England with more than a derisory amount of land on the continent is going to be a constant target for France, so in order for the Angevin Empire to succeed, you're going to need a line of strong Kings who can fend off the French, at least during the periods when the French have strong Kings themselves.
 

DAv

It depends. He was a very accomplished general, but he wasn't very good as an administrator
Click to expand...

Actually, as far as administration went, he wasn't too bad. He found talented people to govern while he was away and they did alright up to John disobeying Richard's orders and arriving in England.
 

Atreus

rcduggan said:
That wouldn't be what the OP was asking for though. A Kingdom of England and a Kingdom of France ruled separately would not be one Angevin feudal empire, just two nation-states by themselves.
Click to expand...

What I mean is you have two branches of the Angevin dynasty. One holds England and it's conquests in the British Isles, the other holds something along the lines of their lands in france. So you have a West France, basically Aquitanne, Normandy, Anjou, and Brittany, and an East France consisting of the rest of what became the kingdom of france.

Anyways, one could argue that this kind of happened in OTL, given how closly related the English and French kings were.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top