Androgyny in Ancient Greece?

Got another Ancient Greece one for ya :]

If the culture was misogynistic in ways such as a female not being considered a citizen, how would an androgynous male have been treated in Ancient Greece?

Because at first glance one wouldn't be able to tell what sex the person was, so I'd imagine there was a 50% chance of thinking 'that person is not a citizen' before finding out that it was actually a male. Would they change their mind then, or would they still say 'Um... you don't... LOOK... like a citizen... So... I still consider you less than me.' ?

I find it especially interesting because the Greeks have always been admirers of the beauty of the human form, but even that seems male-leaned.
 
Badly.

Effeminate men were not looked upon kindly, and the list of things considered effeminate was hilarious, long and to modern eyes counter-intuitive.

Though it was somewhat more borderline in a mystic context, Dyonisiac cults and such, as well as Anatolian mother-deity cults (the very negative associations that we do find in classic literature are mostly Roman-era and post-Stoic).
 
I'm interested in seeing that hilarious list you mentioned :]

Also, I understand that the culture valued intellectuals and the arts. Was it at least possible for your 'lack of raw masculinity' to be ignored if you had something interesting to say, or had a talent in something?
 
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The Greeks had an abiding - interest - in androgyny both from a religious and sexual perspective. It would not be an easy thing for them to accept as normal, but then, they most likely would not have done that. Rather on the contrary, there is a good chance the person in question would be known far and wide for being androgynous. That would havve implications for his private life, but probably no legal ones (providing s/he was born to a citizen and the family raised him/her as a boy).

You have to keep in mind that most Greek poleis were small societies where it mattered who knew you and knew your parents. if your father was a citizen and your father said you were a son, then you were a citizen (and everybody had seen your equipment in the gymnasion, so they knew you had it). But you'd still have tourists coming to bother you and it's unlikely you'd ever live a normal life.

In a big city like Athens or Corinth, chances are you would need to somehow "identify" as male and respectable. Use the appropriate mode of dress and conduct.

If there was any doubt of your claim to male and citizen status, though, it is unlikely you could achieve it.
 
Got another Ancient Greece one for ya :]

If the culture was misogynistic in ways such as a female not being considered a citizen, how would an androgynous male have been treated in Ancient Greece?

Because at first glance one wouldn't be able to tell what sex the person was, so I'd imagine there was a 50% chance of thinking 'that person is not a citizen' before finding out that it was actually a male. Would they change their mind then, or would they still say 'Um... you don't... LOOK... like a citizen... So... I still consider you less than me.' ?

I find it especially interesting because the Greeks have always been admirers of the beauty of the human form, but even that seems male-leaned.

you are very liberal with your invectives and you should't;think more and read carefully:a system that does not consider a woman a citizen is misogynistic? I hope you know that your allegations do not hold water in Doric societies;take Sparta for example and its women.Look at www.elysiumgates.com/helena 'sparta reconsidered'.
If you say that the system was misogynistic in Athens for example,it is like you accuse them of having slaves,in other words the greatest failing of students, judging those societies with modern standards;Women were made citizens in western societies at various stages during the 20th century,expressed in the depth of history it means 'yesterday'.
Now,don't believe that the men were made citizens in the modern sense so easy;in Sparta if you were not married until you became thirty years old you were in danger of losing your civic rights,and in Athens the full rights of the citizen were given at the age of thirty,when someone had the right to be elected(for example) general,he should obvioully be married etc as you know the Romans had taken the Athenian family law among other codes,and there a woman had the status of a 'filius' that is with partial citizen rights.(see Buckland:"Roman family Law") so the faenomenon was general In Greeks,with the exception of the Dorians and later in the Romans and in such generally applied cases any systemic invective is invalid.
 
They had sex with them. Well, depending on what region and how ancient. Some men back then liked males who had the appearance angels. It's complicated.
 
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