Andean Kingdom

[The Kiat]

Had another one of my crazy thoughts while trying to fall asleep. What if the conquest of the Inca was seriously delayed. Say Pizzaro met with a misfortune. He came close enough on more than one occasion. Anyway, let's say the conquest was delayed, and instead of outright domination, the Incan Empire was made a protectorate of Spain. Now when they broke free of the shackles in the early 19th Century, what would this state look like? Would they call themselves Peru or Tawantinsuyu? Would it still be a monarchy, or would they go the way of the Bolivarians and become the Incan Republic? What about their religion? As a protectorate, no doubt Spain would send in the missionaries. Would they be outright Catholic, or a mixture of Catholicism and their old beliefs? What about language? Would Spanish be a dominate language, or would Inca be like Algeria where the overlord's language was only one for the educated and elite? What did they speak anyway; Quecha? I think that's still spoken in parts of Peru and ecuador.

Throw some ideas at me, for I think I'll try and tackle this one the way I did Songhai.

 

[zoomar]

Interesting idea. I particularly like your very realistic presumption that the only way an Inca Kingdom would survive is as a vassal of the Spanish Empire. TLs that start from 1500 and have the native civilizations of the new world completely resist European domination are virtually ASB.

Given the missionary zeal of Spanish colonization as well as the drive for wealth, I suspect that the The Inca Kingdom in this TL would have to "officially" convert to Catholicism and enter into into some verey unequal relationships with the Spanish Crown regarding access for silver and gold. At minimum the Inca leadership would have to abandon the notion of Inca divinity and formally convert to Catholicism. A synchretized form of folk Catholicism similar to that in middle america might develop with some former Peruvian divinities reimagined or reassociated with Christian saints, but the whole sun god stuff would go away.

I could see also the Spanish making use of the centralized structure of the Inca and use Inca military forces as a means of expanding and controllong their control elsewhere in south america.

I suspect that Quechua would remain the primary language of the Inca Kingdom, but elites would also be fluent in Spanish.

Local elites would also see a lot of intermarriage with resident Spaniards, and gradually they would adopt Spanish styles of dress, residence, domestic architecture, etc. In fact the country might not look a whole lot different from Peru and Equador in our TL - A Hispanicized elite minority ruling over a Quechua-speaking population. The only difference would be that, ethnically, the elite would see themselves as native and descended from the pre-hispanic noble lineages.

Regarding the name of the Inca Kingdom, I see no reason the native "Tawantinsuyu" would not survive.

When or if the revolutionary/republican drive for latin american independence in the 1800's happens in this TL, I could see two possible and interesting options for the Inca Kingdom. One would be for it to be among the first to break away - as a Kingdom - and be the model for other rebellions. Alternatively, an hispanicized native nobility might see its dominance threatened by revolutionary movements and stay fierecly loyal to the Spanish crown, even to the extent of the Inca Kingdom becoming the main ally of the Spanish and using its army to put down rebellions throughout the continent. Imagine Simon Bolivar being brought to Cuzco in chains and beheaded infront of Inca Huascar VI and the Spanish Viceroy, in return for which the Inca Kingdom is granted sovereign authority to rule the Spanish colonies of south america on behalf of Spain.

Now comes some real wierd stuff. In 1900, Spain eventually severes its colonial relationship with Tawantinsuyu, which then becomes an Empire ruling all of the former Spanish lands From Colombia to tierra del fuego. In 1908, the United States fights a war with it to claim Panama for the purposes of building a canal and loses. The Incas, in cooperation with Britain, then builds the canal. in 1912, Britain and the Inca Kingdom enter into a treaty of friendship. When the Great War breaks out in 1914, the Incas enter the war as one of the Entente powers. The USA, still angry over their Panama defeat and intuitively hostile to Britain for their alliance with the Incas, starts off neutral but favorably disposed to the Central Powers. Eventually the USA enters the Great War in 1916 on the side of Germany and its allies....

 

[The Kiat]

Yeah, that last part was weird.

Now the revolutionary parts do make sense. The Inca elite might not be thrilled about the whole Republican revolutions. Of course, if you'll recall, when Mexico gained independence, it was a monarchy, albeit briefly. I can't remember which of the states (might have been Colombia/Gran Colombia) but one of them declared Bolivar Dictator/President-for-Life. Now suppose he decides to make it a dynasty and Colombia is a monarchy? Not sure if an Incan Peru would have that sort of effect.

On the other hand, the Incan peasants might just rise up and re-enact the French Revolution on the Incan Emperor. Especially if he has long since ceased being divine. Having the nobility assimilated by the Castillians and not the commoners is bound to create a deep rift.

I wonder how plausable general education for the Incan Empire sounds. These schools would probably be in the form of Missions ran by padres, who answer to the Bishop of Cuzco, or something like that. I'd have to do a little more research on the Incan Empire and colonial South America before I could write up anything.

Oh, and imported diseases. I don't think small pox (or other European diseases) hit the Inca as bad as the Aztecs. Of course Incan cities were spread out further, and it would take longer to travel the mountain highways. It would have an impact on the major cities, maybe killing half the population? And the Castillians would have their own problems from stuff like Dengue Fever.

 

[mrmandias]

If Spain actually takes steps to protect its vassals, that's likely to be one of the mestizo grievances when the revolts break out elsewhere in S. America. Which means that Spanish Incaland will probably actually be strongly royalist.

 

[The Kiat]

But would that mean the revolutions would take longer to succeed, or would they fail outright with the Incan Army backing Spain. I think this might depend on the composition of the Incan Army. If it's some sort of Warrior Caste (again, I've only read one book on the Inca, and that was on their engineering) then that seems most likely to support The System. If they are conscripted peasants, I'd say there's a fair chance they (or at least some) would mutiny. That would be a bloody civil war.

Ok, let's say the revolutions happen here as they do in OTL. I think it's safe to say Mexico will likely win its independence. I'm not so sure about Colombia or Argentina. Bolivia was divided between Rio del Plata and Peru, wasn't it? I'm not sure what the viceroyalty and vassal borders would even look like.

I've sketched up something crude, and would like feedback/sniping at it. It shows the Viceroyalties of New Spain, New Granada and Rio del Plata, along with where an Incan protectorate might exist.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Interesting thread guys. You guys mentioned the possibility of a French Revolution-esque event happening if the peasantry feels that the Inca nobility has become too assimilated and de-legitimized to continue ruling as monarchs. How would the little things of Inca-society such as the large-scale central planning, vast system of grain-houses, and mandatory work periods continuing would affect the development of say socialism or something akin to it over all in Europe? These were features that does resemble some aspects of socialism.

Wondered what your thoughts were on that.

 

[The Kiat]

I try not to think about Socialism.

Ok, seriously, if you mean like Marxism, I'm not sure Marx would even pay any attention to the Incan/Preuvians. For all the brotherhood Socialism is suppose to generate, 19th Century Europe might not be able to get over the fact that these people aren't even white. Now if the Emperor were still around in the 20th Century (input above against this makes valid points) then a Red Revolution in Peru might try to restore Incan traditions--- a kind of Cultural Revolution. Maybe, maybe not, it's just a thought.

Now when you say mandatory labor, are you talking Corvee? I thought that was just a tax paid with service instead of product. I see no reason why it wouldn't keep on going. Since <insert name for Incan state> is going to be a Protectorate, I'm not sure if Spain would do much altering in a beaurocracy that works (as well as any can).

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

I try not to think about Socialism.

Ok, seriously, if you mean like Marxism, I'm not sure Marx would even pay any attention to the Incan/Preuvians. For all the brotherhood Socialism is suppose to generate, 19th Century Europe might not be able to get over the fact that these people aren't even white. Now if the Emperor were still around in the 20th Century (input above against this makes valid points) then a Red Revolution in Peru might try to restore Incan traditions--- a kind of Cultural Revolution. Maybe, maybe not, it's just a thought.

If it's a Red Revolution as in the Russian Revolution, I doubt it would lead to the Emperor lasting very long. As you had said it, the peasantry and any rising group of middle class Tawantinsuyuans will not tolerate a monarch that is too close to the Europeans culturally as well as politically. There are too many factors to wonder what sort of figure would be leading them among other things...

Now when you say mandatory labor, are you talking Corvee?

Something like that.

I thought that was just a tax paid with service instead of product. I see no reason why it wouldn't keep on going. Since <insert name for Incan state> is going to be a Protectorate, I'm not sure if Spain would do much altering in a beaurocracy that works (as well as any can).

On the contrary, the Spaniards continued the Inca practices of mandatory labor in order to extract silver from the mines in Peru.

 

[The Kiat]

I think a possible PoD would be eliminating Pizzarro. I think some of them wanted to burn the Spanish "army" (less than two hundred is an army?) in the sleeping quarters. Having that plot work would leave Spain wondering exactly what happened to this expedition. Future expeditions (decades later?) could enter Cuzco and see an Emperor wearing a captured Spanish sword. Metal weapons might spur the Inca to produce more bronze spears, maybe even long blades that mimic steel swords. Or bronze hatchets or maces.

I wonder if there could even be a Spanish Armada in 1588 without immediate access to Incan gold and silver.

On the contrary, the Spaniards continued the Inca practices of mandatory labor in order to extract silver from the mines in Peru.

So Spain still gets the silver (and gold), but what does the Incan government get? Something like 'give us your riches and we'll allow you to retain some sort of independence'.

 

[kasumigenx]

Had another one of my crazy thoughts while trying to fall asleep. What if the conquest of the Inca was seriously delayed. Say Pizzaro met with a misfortune. He came close enough on more than one occasion. Anyway, let's say the conquest was delayed, and instead of outright domination, the Incan Empire was made a protectorate of Spain. Now when they broke free of the shackles in the early 19th Century, what would this state look like? Would they call themselves Peru or Tawantinsuyu? Would it still be a monarchy, or would they go the way of the Bolivarians and become the Incan Republic? What about their religion? As a protectorate, no doubt Spain would send in the missionaries. Would they be outright Catholic, or a mixture of Catholicism and their old beliefs? What about language? Would Spanish be a dominate language, or would Inca be like Algeria where the overlord's language was only one for the educated and elite? What did they speak anyway; Quecha? I think that's still spoken in parts of Peru and ecuador.

Throw some ideas at me, for I think I'll try and tackle this one the way I did Songhai.

I would like to see a South-East Asian style decolonization in OTL Latin America.

 

[Tizoc]

Would Spain really get ITTL the same amount of precious metals as in OTL? It's rather doubtfull. And if this'd be a case, what's with XVIth C. inflation in Europe? Will it happen? Or not? Or sth in between?

 

[The Kiat]

I would like to see a South-East Asian style decolonization in OTL Latin America.

How would that work? Ok, the Inca were a coherent state, but what about the viceroyalties? If anything, it'd be more like Africa, with various tribes either forced together or cut in half by administrative borders drawn up on the other side of the ocean. Just like SE Asia.... North Peru and South Peru...

Would Spain really get ITTL the same amount of precious metals as in OTL? It's rather doubtfull. And if this'd be a case, what's with XVIth C. inflation in Europe? Will it happen? Or not? Or sth in between?

You mean that flood of gold on the market that really screwed up economics in Spain? Spain would still get to plunder the Aztecs.

They'd eventually get much of the precious metals, but it would be a more drawn out process, one of tribute rather than downright pillaging. Given a long enough time between contact and control, such as decades, the Andean population (or the survivors) should have developed some sort of immunity to European diseases. Not as strong as the Europeans', but good enough to prevent their populations from being outright wiped out.

 

[Pesterfield]

Ok, the Inca were a coherent state, but what about the viceroyalties?

So you think the Spanish would still chop off bits despite not total conquest?

It's agreed that the Incan religion would at least go underground, but what about after independence? Could it make a comeback as part of fully throwing out the invader?

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

I'd say it'd make a comeback. In general Spanish missionary efforts were not very successful. The most they did in many predominately indigenous areas was add Jesus/God to the pantheon.

 

[The Kiat]

Here's a thought I'm going to throw out there. Something I might use in the beginning. Basically, after all the Spanish are burned in their quarters, the Inca find their weapons and armor. I'd say there's no way they could duplicate the armor outright, but would steel weapons encourage the Inca to discard their stone weapons and go full bronze? Perhaps even make some long knives similar to swords. Maybe even some sort of bronze armor.

 

[The Kiat]

I was hoping for a little more input before I began.


I'm going to try a PoD of not having Huascar (I think that was the second-to-last Emperor) Inca not dying of Small Pox. Thus, no civil strife/war when Pizzarro first appears. Come on, it's only a 180 Castillians vs tens of thousands of Incan warriors. Since the first wave of disease has passed through the Empire, I wouldn't reckon it being as devastating as what happened to the Aztecs.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

It was because Ninan Cuyochi's death from smallpox that triggered the division of the Inca to begin with between Atahualpa and Huascar. If he lives, then there won't be no civil war to begin with. Plus Huascar wasn't exactly the personality you want running as Sapa Inca.

 

[wolf_brother]

I'm not sure the Inka could survive, in any recognizable form, as a society after being a Spanish protectorate for such a long time. The Spanish colonial system was notoriously horrible on the natives, and the Inka's proto-command/collectivist economy wouldn't operate within that system. Even without the disease issue you're still going to see a total breakdown of the native society even with 'light' Spanish colonialism.

 

[The Kiat]

Ah, I see what I did wrong. I meant Huayna not Huascar. Of course he was somewhere around 60 when he died.

Ok, so Huayna makes Ninan Cuyochi his heir-apparent. Did the Inca even do that? I've read that civil wars tend to happen between heirs, but was that when there was no clear heir, or just a general policy.

 

[The Kiat]

I'm not sure the Inka could survive, in any recognizable form, as a society after being a Spanish protectorate for such a long time. The Spanish colonial system was notoriously horrible on the natives, and the Inka's proto-command/collectivist economy wouldn't operate within that system. Even without the disease issue you're still going to see a total breakdown of the native society even with 'light' Spanish colonialism.

That's what this timeline is going to be about. The Incan Protectorate, and its evolution under Spanish Suzereignity.. er, as a Spanish Vassal. I know there's going to be a massive case of culture shock.