And So This Is An Alternate Christmas

WI the symbols of Christmas-the tree, giving gifts, etc-remained pagan traditions while Christmas was celebrated as a soley religious holiday? Would there be two different days-one for giving gifts, and another for celebrating the birth of Christ?
 
WI the symbols of Christmas-the tree, giving gifts, etc-remained pagan traditions while Christmas was celebrated as a soley religious holiday? Would there be two different days-one for giving gifts, and another for celebrating the birth of Christ?

I'm not sure the early celebrants of Christmas would have understood the difference. Such concern for purity seems rather Protestant.

I suppose that only strict biblical symbols would be allowed, if we are to disallow all seasonal imagery, which tends to be pagan. Mary and Joseph, the Magi, a star, angels and shepherds. Sheep. Farm animals. Hay. Censuses.
 
WI the symbols of Christmas-the tree, giving gifts, etc-remained pagan traditions while Christmas was celebrated as a soley religious holiday? Would there be two different days-one for giving gifts, and another for celebrating the birth of Christ?

It would depend.

Gift exchanges are already done on different days in many other non-Anglo countries. In Mexico for example, it's Epiphany.

I thought the gift-giving came from the three wise men giving gifts to Jesus.

Sort of. Originally gifts were associated more with Epiphany, celebrating the arrival of the Magi. I'm pretty sure the German and Dutch traditions that influanced gift giving on Christmas were originally pagan.
 
I'm not sure the early celebrants of Christmas would have understood the difference. Such concern for purity seems rather Protestant.

I suppose that only strict biblical symbols would be allowed, if we are to disallow all seasonal imagery, which tends to be pagan. Mary and Joseph, the Magi, a star, angels and shepherds. Sheep. Farm animals. Hay. Censuses.

Again, it would depend if Epiphany remained the bigger holiday.

I expect some of the pagan holidays could have survived separately. Maybe we'd have Yule for the wild party, Christmas starting a religious festival ending with
Epiphany, when gifts are exchanged.
 
i remeber that we got gifts on the feast day of st.nicolaus. But more importantly if we remove the pagean we should celebreat christ-mas in march apirl and not december as that is when the bibel telles us he was borne. 24-25 of december is a very very pagean day.
 
i remeber that we got gifts on the feast day of st.nicolaus. But more importantly if we remove the pagean we should celebreat christ-mas in march apirl and not december as that is when the bibel telles us he was borne. 24-25 of december is a very very pagean day.


AFAIK, the Bible never specified a time for Christ's birth...
 
Maybe, we do know that Joseph and Mary were on their way to Bethlehem to be taxed. So when did the Roman Empire do that? Was there a set time of the year?

Nope. There wasn't even an annual census (and indeed, the whole story is slightly fishy). People usually paid taxes in their home city, to the local authorities. Provincial censuses also usually counted that way. Unless Joseph really was a foreigner living in Nazareth temporarily, there's no reason for him to go to Bethlehem (except Old Testament prophecy, of course). After all, Jesus is fairly unequivocally referred to as 'Nazaraios'. That may be wrong, but it certainly contradicts the prominent position of Bethlehem in his life.

There are a few other pointers in the story - sheep in the fields near the town, for example - that indicate midwinter is improbable, though. And that his birthday should just happen to be discovered to coincide with a major third-century holiday *in the third century* is either proof of divine providence or a strong indication of a certain flexibility in ritual matters.
 
It does not give a time of year, but the shepperds are out to help with the lambing, ther are other points as well but i dont have the reffererences at hand. December was the date of sol invictus in rome, the scandinavian term JUL/YUL was the midvinter blot to Odin.
 
Maybe, we do know that Joseph and Mary were on their way to Bethlehem to be taxed. So when did the Roman Empire do that? Was there a set time of the year?

As one of my University professors said, if they had been in the fields during the winter solistice, the shepards would have been guarding sheep-cicles. Bethlehem was supposed to be a center of the Adonis cult, and Adonis also died and came back from the dead.
 
As one of my University professors said, if they had been in the fields during the winter solistice, the shepards would have been guarding sheep-cicles. Bethlehem was supposed to be a center of the Adonis cult, and Adonis also died and came back from the dead.

In all fairness, that image probably owes more to the caroling tradition. Israel gets chilly in winter, but not that cold.
 
I'm not sure the early celebrants of Christmas would have understood the difference. Such concern for purity seems rather Protestant.

Yeah.

I suppose that only strict biblical symbols would be allowed, if we are to disallow all seasonal imagery, which tends to be pagan. Mary and Joseph, the Magi, a star, angels and shepherds. Sheep. Farm animals. Hay. Censuses.

Exactly, but the Nativity scene really is accepted in many countries as one of the basic symbols of Christmas. Don't know about the Anglo-phone part of the world, but here in central Europe, it's quite a strong tradition to have a hand-made nativity scene at home in addition to the christmas tree and other decorations. Or if not a hand-made one, then a foldable paper one, bought at a local giftshop or bookstore. Showcasing nativity scenes on the main square of bigger cities is an absolute staple.
 
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