And All Nations Shall Gather To It - Volume I: The Abode of Peace
- Thread starter Ricard (i.e. Rdffigueira)
- Start date
Takes about a month for a OTL Mongol army from Karakorum Mongolia to Budapest. Takes about two months for a Germany army same time period to march from Mainz Germany to Budapest.
OTL Mongol limitation is about talent pool since their logistics is somewhat independent from the baggage train. It just so happens that 1241 was led by Subudei which happens to be his last years. If Battle of Mohi happend in 1220s or 1240s(with Genghis and Subudei were in their 20s), the Mongols would probably plowed thru Western Europe. Quite the opposite if Subudei died same age as Genghis. There would be no Mongol general capable of successfully invading Hungary.
You are overestimating Crusader capability vs OTL Mongols. ATL nerfed Mongols maybe. OTL Mongols not possible. Persia and Northern China didnt lack fortifications or strong castles.
Even in OTL, Mongols conducted Psy war. Sack the castle/fortification that refused to surrender, spare the one that surrenders. All castles followed to surrender.
During Subudei's Georgian invasion 1220s, at the same time, Genghis was in Persia sacking cities. It would be no different if Georgia had more castles. OTL Mongols conduct Multiple campaigns simultaneously. Its not like the OTL Mongols campaign one place at a time only.
Even during the invasion of Hungary in 1240s, campaigns were simultaneous, Subudei was in Hungary, Baidar was in Poland, Baiju was in Kose Dag Anatolia.
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they have nearly secured all of Anatolia, Jon Komenoi will live long, they have beaten Hungary, have Antioch and Edessa as foreign territory, and they have a strong navy, so they are in possition for a possible revival to dominance in eastern-southern europe, and the middle east.
Closing in on pre manzikert levels of strength. IIRC the OTL empire had more ppl and made more money than pre manzikert even without the rest of the Anatolia like they have here. And with the Muslim states in disarray this leaves the empire as the supreme power in the eastern Mediterranean.
exactly, nice observations, they just need to secure Armenia, and with Jon Komenoi as a longterm leader, they could be well on their way towards it.
Civil wars are a feature, not a bug. Waving THEM away is ignoring the context - Mongolia got so big, round around when they reached Hungary, that perpetual peace between the Khanates became impossible. In a period of relative calm the Mongols could still reach as far as Hungary, but when the calm falls away this ends.
And that is why you have castles - not to hold out forever in Samarkand in the midst of a sea of Mongols, but to hold out in the hills of Hungary or Palestine until the Mongols get called away to do something productive against a rival Khan.
But there is no way for the Mongols to BE in Hungary in 1220, because Hungary (like Palestine) is on the tail end of the Steppe from Mongolia, hence it will always be one of the later locations they can invade.
Again, see above - the point is not that Crusader castles need to be strong enough to hold for decades like the key Chinese fortifications of the southern Song. They need to hold out for months or a year until the Mongols get called back to their core areas.
How did the Mongols deal with the stone castles/fortifications? I mean they were not a siege train heavy force and in the first invasion they mostly dealt with wooden castles (afaik which granted isn’t much). Via their auxiliaries? Wouldn’t they then have the same issues an equivalent force from the western powers have?
I mean I can see them overrun unprepared forces because of their speed and capabilities, I can certainly see physiological warfare, trickery and bribery et al, but a long winded siege with artillery etc, that seems not their style.
I mean I can see them overrun unprepared forces because of their speed and capabilities, I can certainly see physiological warfare, trickery and bribery et al, but a long winded siege with artillery etc, that seems not their style.
I mean it depends, they did well in Northern China on the other side in their second invasion of Hungary they had problems.
Some people build the mongols up to be this unbeatable for , it’s ridiculous.
I will say they are probably the best pre gunpowder army the world ever saw , and that beating them by anyone in this era is not likely, but unlikely things happen all the time. Maybe the mongol commander catches the plague and his replacement isn’t nearly as devious , maybe they are forced to fight a field battle innubfavorable terrain , maybe they run into a military genius on the other side , anything could happen. They were lucky in that their best commanders were not ambitions personally , and were all healthy. There wasn’t some bottomless pit of subodies to draw from.
I will say they are probably the best pre gunpowder army the world ever saw , and that beating them by anyone in this era is not likely, but unlikely things happen all the time. Maybe the mongol commander catches the plague and his replacement isn’t nearly as devious , maybe they are forced to fight a field battle innubfavorable terrain , maybe they run into a military genius on the other side , anything could happen. They were lucky in that their best commanders were not ambitions personally , and were all healthy. There wasn’t some bottomless pit of subodies to draw from.
jocay
Banned
Re: the rebellion in eastern Syria and implications down the road.
The Arab-Andalusian geographer Ibn Jubair noted that the Franks in the Levant were relatively tolerant and almost benign of their treatment of their Muslim subjects. Enough Muslims were killed during the First Crusade and left to Egypt and Mesopotamia that left the Levant desolate and with a shortage of members in the agricultural class to till the land and extract income out of. This forced lords to guarantee rights and privileges that would not be enjoyed by the average farmer in any other circumstance. And to encourage settlement to clear the wastes and develop them into proper settlements and farms. This often left them to rely on the remaining Muslim and Syrian Christians.
It was noted that (in OTL) around the 1160s the Armenian prince Thoros visited Jerusalem and noted the land being settled by Muslims; whom he viewed as a potential security risk. He offered as many as 30,000 Armenians to settle and help colonize the Levant. The barons welcomed the influx of these Armenian settlers, seeing them as a means to increase the military strength and economic vitality. The clergy was insistent that the Armenians be forced to pay the tithe, which was not obligated out of the Muslims. The Armenian ruler refused to accept the conditions and backed out.
Here the Crusader State is noticeably much larger, enjoys amiable relations with the imperial court at Constantinople and in a position where it would not be quickly thwarted. At the same time, the stories of the devastation of Edessa by the Saracaens from refugees and the returning Crusader-Roman armies (added with the rebellion in Syria) will leave a bad taste on the Outremerine aristocracy and incentivize the Jerusalemite prince to foster an intensified colonization of the principality's frontier. Not necessarily European as that's covered by treaties with the Italian city-states; indigenous Christians from Palestine and Mount Lebanon can be transplanted here.
You would have a vastly more loyal population that would pay taxes and tithes (and serve in the Crusader State's armies when the situation arises) but the native Christians would be granted with land and burgher rights that they would not otherwise receive. This would lead to an increased yet still gradual integration of an European-derived nobility with their Levantine subjects. And an inversely harsher attitude and isolation of what remains of the Crusader State's Muslim subjects.
Fringe communities such as the Druze and Alawites would do anything possible to further drive themselves apart from mainstream Islam to placate the Christians.
The Arab-Andalusian geographer Ibn Jubair noted that the Franks in the Levant were relatively tolerant and almost benign of their treatment of their Muslim subjects. Enough Muslims were killed during the First Crusade and left to Egypt and Mesopotamia that left the Levant desolate and with a shortage of members in the agricultural class to till the land and extract income out of. This forced lords to guarantee rights and privileges that would not be enjoyed by the average farmer in any other circumstance. And to encourage settlement to clear the wastes and develop them into proper settlements and farms. This often left them to rely on the remaining Muslim and Syrian Christians.
It was noted that (in OTL) around the 1160s the Armenian prince Thoros visited Jerusalem and noted the land being settled by Muslims; whom he viewed as a potential security risk. He offered as many as 30,000 Armenians to settle and help colonize the Levant. The barons welcomed the influx of these Armenian settlers, seeing them as a means to increase the military strength and economic vitality. The clergy was insistent that the Armenians be forced to pay the tithe, which was not obligated out of the Muslims. The Armenian ruler refused to accept the conditions and backed out.
Here the Crusader State is noticeably much larger, enjoys amiable relations with the imperial court at Constantinople and in a position where it would not be quickly thwarted. At the same time, the stories of the devastation of Edessa by the Saracaens from refugees and the returning Crusader-Roman armies (added with the rebellion in Syria) will leave a bad taste on the Outremerine aristocracy and incentivize the Jerusalemite prince to foster an intensified colonization of the principality's frontier. Not necessarily European as that's covered by treaties with the Italian city-states; indigenous Christians from Palestine and Mount Lebanon can be transplanted here.
You would have a vastly more loyal population that would pay taxes and tithes (and serve in the Crusader State's armies when the situation arises) but the native Christians would be granted with land and burgher rights that they would not otherwise receive. This would lead to an increased yet still gradual integration of an European-derived nobility with their Levantine subjects. And an inversely harsher attitude and isolation of what remains of the Crusader State's Muslim subjects.
Fringe communities such as the Druze and Alawites would do anything possible to further drive themselves apart from mainstream Islam to placate the Christians.
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trajen777
Banned
Great update
-With much of the Middle East devastated --- Aleppo / Baghdad / Damascus / Anatolia -- im not so sure the Mongols would invade the middle east. The khan made a major decision to invade Europe and the Middle east based upon loot and riches. IN this circumstance much of the outer ring / and middle ring is devoid of wealth (much recovery is needed). Wealth will come from Egypt and Constanople conquest. So they would have a lot of conquest for little gain until then. I see them going after India and SE Asia first is more likely. So not sure the invasion would ever happen.
Mongol spies were excellent and the agents and research would probably not justify the invasion vs the trade deals and invasions of other areas would gain
-With much of the Middle East devastated --- Aleppo / Baghdad / Damascus / Anatolia -- im not so sure the Mongols would invade the middle east. The khan made a major decision to invade Europe and the Middle east based upon loot and riches. IN this circumstance much of the outer ring / and middle ring is devoid of wealth (much recovery is needed). Wealth will come from Egypt and Constanople conquest. So they would have a lot of conquest for little gain until then. I see them going after India and SE Asia first is more likely. So not sure the invasion would ever happen.
Mongol spies were excellent and the agents and research would probably not justify the invasion vs the trade deals and invasions of other areas would gain
Except that the wars of the Second Crusade still happened about 100 years before the Mongols invaded IOTL. Assuming Khamag Mongol got their crap together (which is still no guarantee, something I feel hasn't been brought with all the discussion about the Mongols really is the fact that we don't even know if the Mongols will unify into a centralized polity yet, they're currently little more than a tribal confederation at the moment.), the Middle East would have largely recovered, assuming no major conflicts come to pass between the Second Crusade and the time Mongolia invades.
Well, it is clear that Rhomania and Georgia are the real winners of this war. But Mosul's resolution saved Iraq, at least.
Let's see how the Crusaders will fare against Egypt. At this point, is the only threat to their right to stay in the Middle East. Permanent or less, we'll see.
Let's see how the Crusaders will fare against Egypt. At this point, is the only threat to their right to stay in the Middle East. Permanent or less, we'll see.
The author has said that Mongols will happen roughly as IOTL, so that part is a given.
What is possible are early butterflies, though, like Subutai dying in 1223 or something and the invasions overall having less of an impact as the khanates turn against each other more quickly.
You are comparing apples and oranges.
The advantage of the Song vs Crusaders are technology, organization, wealth, disciplined armies, logistics. The closest thing that Europe got for the Song are the Eastern Romans. We cannot in anyway say the Crusaders are at parity or near the OTL Song in organization, wealth, tech, disciplined armies or logistics to have any chance to hold or even make more castles that can last for years.
Song China or OTL China is more meritocratic than the Crusaders, which increases the chances of better quality talent pool of leaders to hold a castle for years vs talented generals like Genghis or Subudei. Without quality leaders, all that new castles will be useless due to lack of preparation to hold the castles or capability to hold the castles. That is of course the Crusaders/Georgians can find the money to build new castles(according your specs resist siege weapons for years), supply each castle with years of provisions, equip and pay those manning the castles/cities/fortifications.
On top of that, the Song got more bodies they can throw for an actual resistance. Using the resources and talent pool of 50-60M people is no joke in 1230s nor can than Crusaders replicate.
If the Crusaders are roughly the same as OTL Song China in organization, resources/wealth, tech, I can probably agree with you.
Could we please stop making this a thread about the Mongols? Temujin is decades away from this point and the historical Mongol empire isn't very relevant. The entire point of this timeline is to explore a Latinate Levant, the destination isn't all that in doubt.
For the love of God, please!!! May all the saints in heaven strike down the next person who mentions the term "Mongol" for the minimum of the next twenty chapters